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  • Martial Arts question and answer forum

    The purpose of this post is an open forum for martial artists of all styles to ask and answer questions regarding the various forms of the arts. The questions can be history, kata, lineage, philosophy, stratagy, etc. For instance, I have been studying Shorin Ryu for the past 21 and a half years, and I have a burning question that I hope someone out there knows the answer to. What was the name of Gichin Funakoshi's wife? There are many biogaphies on "the Father of Modern Karate" that discuss his parentage, his children, and his karate career, but his wife is always mentioned in the third person, never by name. A former student of mine had the chance to train with Kenneth Funakoshi (Gichin's great-grandson), whom he asked this question on my behalf, but unfortunately, Kenneth didn't know the answer either.

  • #2
    I got a question. Is shotokan karate related to shaolin in any way? I've noticed a lot of the shaolin stances are present, in easier and slightly weaker forms, in karate.
    "Be Cool" - Lao Tzu

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    • #3
      the stances in traditional shotokan come from tomari and shuri te which are much shorter and higher. if you look at the old pics of funakoshi and his students form the 30s - even some old footage, the horse is not so wide and the stances are much higher. if you buy "Karate do kyohan" or any of funakoshis other books you will see that. if you compare it with okinawan shorin ryu you can see how shotokan has changed form funakoshis time thru his son and the likes of nakayama sensei etc.

      if anything the skill comes from southern fujian white crane, tiger and 5 ancestor boxing (specifically the saam chien form), which have higher stances compared to northern shaolin anyway. in 5 ancestors there is some Lohan influence, which could be a connection - but its not clear how much has been "southernized".

      dave
      simple and natural is my method,
      true and sincere is my principle --Tse Sigung

      Comment


      • #4
        the horse is not so wide and the stances are much higher
        Yeah that's what I meant by "easier"... it just struck me that there must be some sort of relation, because of the obvious similarities. How did the styles get to influence the japanese MA in the first place?
        "Be Cool" - Lao Tzu

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        • #5
          just coz its higher i wouldnt call it "easier"... the alignment and structrue is different... its like shaolin horse and the wing chun stance - very different things. Using a different method of power generation calls for a difference in stance. i would say shotokan tends to have some of the biggest stances though.

          Karate is from Okinawa, THEN it went to japan. not the other way round. Okinawa is an island south of japan almost the same distance from the coast of china than it is japan. There used to be much trade between china and okinawa and many of the "masters" of karate went to study in Fujian. Kanryo Higashionna, Chojun Miyagi, Kanbun uechi... they all either went to china or had a relationship with chinese kung fu masters who were living on okinawa.

          go get the book "Bubishi" by Patrick McCarthy and you will be able to find out more

          dave
          simple and natural is my method,
          true and sincere is my principle --Tse Sigung

          Comment


          • #6
            Well from my experience, I have found shotokan karate stances much easier, due to the differences in alignment of the feet, having the shoulders and waist strictly forward-facing or not, etc etc, though I suppose it could just be due to having had much more exerience with shotokan. For one example (among many), Shaolin horse stance is notoriously good for leg strengthening because of the initial difficulty of keeping it going in the "proper", low position, "18 lohan hands" style. The karate horse stance (kiba dachi) is much easier and seems to put little or no strain on the legs (to me anyway), due mainly to not being so low and being a little less specific with regard to foot positioning and so forth. Similarly, shaolin bow-arrow stance is a little harder than karate front stance (zankutsu dachi) because of the emphasis on keeping the feet in a straight line, hooked inward to protect the groin. Shotokan Karate uses a wider stance that's easier to keep balance in, but from a side view, you could be forgiven for thinking they were the same stance. Then there's shaolin false-leg and its similarities to karate's cat stance, and so forth. The point is, these stances are all similar enough so that they're obviously related, I was just wondering how. Shotokan stances are much more similar to shaolin stances than your example of the wing chun stance. It seems to me the modifications to the shotokan stances are mainly concerned with making the stance easier to hold and switch between- I suppose this doesn't make them "weaker" as such, but easier nonetheless

            Jim
            "Be Cool" - Lao Tzu

            Comment


            • #7
              For one example (among many), Shaolin horse stance is notoriously good for leg strengthening because of the initial difficulty of keeping it going in the "proper", low position, "18 lohan hands" style. The karate horse stance (kiba dachi) is much easier and seems to put little or no strain on the legs (to me anyway), due mainly to not being so low and being a little less specific with regard to foot positioning and so forth.

              have to disagree with you there - if you have studdied any of the Tekki Kata then you know how SPECIFIC the horse has to be. Feet 1 1/2 shoulders width apart, feet hooked in a little, hips straight, knees bent low... its very specific. Have you done tekki shodan or tekki nidan yet? Very good kata with some cool takedown stuff

              Similarly, shaolin bow-arrow stance is a little harder than karate front stance (zankutsu dachi) because of the emphasis on keeping the feet in a straight line, hooked inward to protect the groin.

              Zenkutsu dachi also keeps the front foot turned in to protect the groin and for stability.

              Also other styles that came form tomari and shuri te such as wado ryu and shitoryu have a slightly different front stance... theirs are not so wide and more "in line" especially if you can see the wado ryu "chinto" kata which is shotokans "gankaku". Dunno what level you are or if you have seen it Nijushiho is also something that has been "modified" as time has gone on with higher kicks and things.

              Then there's shaolin false-leg and its similarities to karate's cat stance, and so forth.

              Of course - theres only so many ways the body can move, so many ways the body can generate power and issue force. Even styles that were not influenced by Shaolin have things similar.

              Shotokan stances are much more similar to shaolin stances than your example of the wing chun stance.

              The body structure and positioning are different... shotokan does not keep the "baihui" and "huiyin" in line ie. a straight line from the pelvis up to the head (meaning keeping the back as straight as possible). Many people train with their lower back curved in like a military "atten-shun" posture. If you have done any Qigong you will see how apparent that is and its one of the first things you have to learn - for wing chun also but its not so obvious as when doing qigong.

              Thats just one example i can think of from the top of my head and im sure the shaolin guys can tell you more about it.

              It seems to me the modifications to the shotokan stances are mainly concerned with making the stance easier to hold and switch between

              im confused? The stances before Funakoshi sensei took Karate to Japan and during those first years were MUCH shorter and higher than they are now. Also kata such as Nijushiho for example used to have the horse stance and slow Teisho Uke and then a grab and side kick TO THE KNEE not as done now to the head. These are just some examples we can see ocmparing Okinawan Shorin Ryu to modern Shotokan.

              So if anything the Shotokan stances were made bigger to train the legs more and for training.

              dave
              simple and natural is my method,
              true and sincere is my principle --Tse Sigung

              Comment


              • #8
                if anything the Shotokan stances were made bigger to train the legs more and for training.
                ah yes, but I was saying in comparison to shaolin stances, rather than those of other karate styles. I don't know, they seem really easy to me, especially in comparison with the differences in shaolin, but maybe that's because I've been doing it so long I just stopped noticing any difficulties lol

                you have studdied any of the Tekki Kata then you know how SPECIFIC the horse has to be. Feet 1 1/2 shoulders width apart, feet hooked in a little, hips straight, knees bent low... its very specific. Have you done tekki shodan or tekki nidan yet?
                Well in 11 years I've done pretty much all of it at one time or another. It's a little difficult to explain exactly how my progression has gone, since that 11 years is spread out over 4 or 5 different schools and associations, and I've had to start again from a different level at each school I've attended. Basically I've covered pretty much everything up to the equivalent of around about 2nd dan black belt (though I've never actually taken a black belt grading... whether I could even remember all of it is something in itself), but believe it or not, this sunday evening I'm going to a grading, where I'll be moving up from... wait for it... white belt lol. It's a little tedious having to start all over again like this, but, oh well.... So anyway to answer your question, yeah, I've done the tekki kata lol.

                With regard to the horse stance, I don't really know how to explain the difference between shotokan and shaolin, it just... *feels* different. Perhaps it's because I think about it more in shaolin due to having less experience, whereas in karate I just sort of do it correctly without thinking about it. In shaolin gungfu, we were always taught that ideally the thighs should be parallel to the floor, and feet parallel to each other 2 shoulder widths apart, back absolutely straight, things that don't seem emphasized to quite the same degree in karate.

                With regard to your comments about zenkutsu dachi, I have never come across a shotokan version that emphasizes keeping the front leg hooked in. Sensei is forever telling new kids they need to have their front stance wider (only tells them once, mind - after that it's knuckle pressups for them lol), as seen from the front. Shaolin bow-arrow has the legs perfeclty in line, so that from the front you can't see the back leg, though from the side the two stances look almost identical.

                I also find surprising the appearance of shaolin "unicorn-step" stance (back knee almost tucked in behind front knee, weight about 60:40 on the back leg, front foot pointing out about 45 degrees with shoulders in same direction, back foot with heel up and weight on the ball of the foot), in a few shotokan kata - a stance that I would have thought to be really quite obscure. I've done it whne landing from the jump in heian godan, going into the gedan juji uke, for example.

                Heck, maybe this confusion is just being caused by subtle differences in stance / kata execution between different schools / associations, but I'm just saying I find it odd that the stances in shotokan should be SO similar to the shaolin stances, yet there be apparently so little relationship between them.
                "Be Cool" - Lao Tzu

                Comment


                • #9
                  theres not a little relationship with it... it is documented to come from shuri and tomari te from Okinawa which comes from southern fujian white crane, tiger and 5 ancestor fist... if ur training at wahnam then u will see what they do is real close to "hung gar" and "choy li fut" which are also southern styles. So of course there are similarities. All i am saying is that originally the stances were not so big and most of the movements in kata not so "extreme" and infinitely more practical.

                  I mean most of the shotokan guys do kata one way and spar another, but really that doesnt make too much sense if they are teaching actual "bunkai" (application) from the kata. When its for training its all good though, but that distinction has to be made.

                  Have you ever done any northern or seen any clips of it? The attitude and flavour is very different to the southern stuff, which is something many people tend to forget when talking about "shaolin" (Even wahnam is "southern" not "northern"). if you look at say - northern praying mantis and hung gar you will easily see what i mean.

                  As far as what you explained to be different in horse stance - thats just basically what i said above man?

                  dave
                  simple and natural is my method,
                  true and sincere is my principle --Tse Sigung

                  Comment

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