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View Full Version : the USA drops the women's rights in Iraq



Sacha
03-08-2004, 12:26 PM
Hi everybody this is very important!!.

After the assaninat of AKILA Al Hashimi, the only woman member of the Council of "gouvenement transitory"
and in spite of the manifestations of the militant Christian women and Moslem women, the supreme Council of the Islamic revolution voted the abolition of the code of the family, considered liberal , and the application of Charia! (abolished under the Saddam tyrant)
In the vain hope to obtain a truce, the representative of George Bush thus agreed to close the eyes on the return of the veil, enfermement and lapidation. as in Iran It is necessary to support the courage of the women in Iran!!!

This is horrible that all those which reads this message makes known it around him. Not "new" afhgAnistan country pro has "September 11"

doc
03-08-2004, 07:00 PM
What's this doing in the Shaolin Gong Fu Schools forum?

LOL, I'll move it.

BTW, I'm a bit confused about what all this is...

cassius
03-08-2004, 08:07 PM
the us could never have a say about the veil. thats one area they just cant go...




Teenage Mutant Hero Turtles.

shaolinstylee
03-08-2004, 09:48 PM
This is way wrong, but I heard a joke not too long ago.

Nipple tassle is to the US
as the veil is to extremist moslem's.

dave
03-09-2004, 12:25 AM
the scary thing is that its only the islamic fundies who keep talking about "imposing" shariah. As there are also plenty of other contemporary scholars who have a different opinion of what "shariah" actually is. Like i was trying to say on the other thread doc - most of the guys on the iraq "governing council" have their own militias and lackies doing all their dirty work - the hijab is one such thing - in some cases not even just the head scarf but the cover over the nose and mouth too.

hence why i said that in some cases the situation of the people was better under Saddam. My friends cousin there is a 20yr old girl and never used to wear the head scarf - now she does whenever she goes out as there were cases of extremist men throwing acid in the faces of women and such (as also happened in pakistan) - simply because they were not covered.

The annoying thing about all this is that the whole of "islamic law" - 1400 years worth of thought and human experience in the end always comes down to the poor women and if they are covered up enough or not.

makes me so mad :mad:

dave

doc
03-09-2004, 07:19 AM
The problem is, is that they can't separate Islamic law, from common law. Law is law, religion is religion.

But, it will never happen.

Sacha
03-09-2004, 09:16 AM
I wanna said to all of the people, they already put some post here Thank you !!
We can make the difference together !!
Doc u said a very good thing law is the law religion is religion !!

The common law must be created for protect and growing in a safe place if a law (islamic or not) when the law make a discrimination between a man or a women a black or a white a tall with a small
THis is not a law or a religion this is tyrany !!

Sometimes I don't understand who we are (the men) to making this horrible things to the women I don't understand that.

In France now the governement voted a law. THis law said now at school university the hijab is prohibited because this is the symbol of the women asservissement

thanks for all of you !!

doc
03-09-2004, 07:14 PM
Yes, I heard that. But the head scarf is also a manifestation of the Islamic religion, no?

It's one thing to ban something that is a demonstration of the diminishing of women's rights, it's purely another to ban a religious concept (and necessity).

dave
03-09-2004, 08:32 PM
ok a few points i wanna raise first :)

Doc - re: religion and law being seperate. This is the interesting point. Basically Islamic law also encompasses "normal" law. There are a few key things outlined in Quran and the prophets Sunnah (dont confuse sunnah with hadith) on legal precepts and such, but even those are not so vast. Quran is only around maybe 15% actual legal rulings and precepts - the rest is about morality and developing the character as well as the theological side. Most of the precepts of law actually come through intellectual development of scholars form the time the Prophet left onwards. A lot of Islamic law takes in to account something in arabic called 'urf which is the local custom/practises as well as other things like that. The thing you have to remember it is a system of Law not just something that says do this and dont do that and ppl blindly follow. Though thats what many people believe and want others to believe. How long does it take to study Law and be qualified? Islamically it was generally between 8-10 years if not more though its not happening so much now.

A great article which explains the basic principles of Islamic law (as well as all the nasty "punishments" ppl have in mind and so on) is here (http://muslim-canada.org/Islam_myths.htm). I dont agree with some of the points they they highlighted but it gives a pretty good overview.

Also regarding the headscarf... there are different views on this and its really quite interesting. For me and my school its more like this: Muhammad and his followers were Arab - so of course they followed 7th century Arab custom that didnt contradict the Islamic ethos. Part of that was wearing a scarf on the head. usually just wrapped around so the ends are thrown over the back of the neck. So of course when the verse comes down which literally means "cover your bosoms" (and be modest) its natural to use the scarf thats already there to do that. Now, the whole middle east region had a similar custom so all the legal thoughts and things were also written by Arabs who followed their customs and practises. For me - im not Arab and dont need to be an Arab clone to be Muslim.

For sure the "traditional" opinions on this are that the scarf is mandatory - some even say that you should only show the face and hands and some even the eyes and hands. But reaching even further back than the "orthodoxy" there is also much evidence that it was not settled... there is heaps of research and discussion going on about these kind of things - particularly between us muslims who are in the west and also places like malaysia and so on. Basically coz here we can discuss it. here (http://www.maryams.net/articles_veil02.shtml) and also here (http://www.mwlusa.org/publications/positionpapers/hijab.html) are some good examples of this contemporary thought.

I totally agree with what you say in the last sentence though doc - if it is an obligation that has to be observed then i dont understand why they can ban it. I thought the welfare of the citizens was kinda important for government s but im naive :) Also it then gets in to the issue about wearing the scarf - some are forced, some believe its required so choose to, some dont like being stared at (sexually) so cover and so on..,. there are many different reasons why.

anyway just some more food for thought - you said u wanted to learn stuff so thats why im shooting off so many links :)

dave

Sacha
03-10-2004, 10:09 AM
If I say to you that, my religion have a habit to control a part of the population. Do you think it's a good interpretation of the Coran ?

This part of the population have for OBLIGATION and not by choice to carry the scarf. Do you not believe that this practice would not have to be prohibited ? I recall you lot of woman in Irak doesn't want the scarf by obligation because religion it's personal, it's a personal choice to practice a religion !!

Tradition or habit, are not "perfection". It can be to change if they are against the good of all the human beings.

With this kind point of vue The women would still not vote today and would be simple objects!! Not thank you not for that for me!!

About the France I recall you that. France it is a Laïque state not a religious state. And when you want to live in a country the laws should be followed. Isn'it ?

And I think France is not the badest country in the world for living, even we are not "perfect" (it is true that we have this mania to eat snail and frogs and to be arrogant , but you also can eat them if you want it, you are not forced. Because that makes some more eat for us!! ) :-))) joke of courses)

we protect and also help the poor people ? Like the USA or some great country

For the human rights everybody are equal in rights. If it's not the case some "actions" or decision must be carried out to make them respect.
And that for the respect of "half" the world population I want to say the women!!!

Nobody or no religion can asserve human being ! I recall you that all of the religion on earth want the same thing

" share, compassion, to help people" growing in harmony with each other. They don't take the same way but they have the same goal Isn't it

Think about his

Sorry for my bad english I hope u can understand my thinking I'm not agains't the muslim but against the Islamist

dave
03-10-2004, 03:21 PM
i am against the Islamist too :)

dave

Sacha
03-10-2004, 03:59 PM
I'm sure of it dear Dave !!

I don't like make amalgamate so I can make the difference between A fanatic and moderate practitioner :happy:

dogchow108
03-10-2004, 04:13 PM
comments pending some further insight and a break from work :vryangry:

shaolinstylee
03-10-2004, 05:37 PM
the rest is about morality

Most laws are based on what we interperet as morality issues though.

don't kill
don't steal
don't do drugs
don't marry gays

In the US, our laws are largely based on Judeo-Christian morals and values, etc.


Why shouldn't theirs be built on Islamic morals and values (which a lot of, would parallel the Judeo-Christian thing)?

dave
03-10-2004, 05:52 PM
thats exactly my point :)

Some people think Islamic Law is making women wear veils, choppping off hands and stoning folks for adultery etc. But its actually a heck of a lot more substantiative than that and those things are not much of it at all

dave

Sacha
03-10-2004, 05:56 PM
Because our law are are the same one as well for the men and for the women !!

In a islamic "republic" If a woman want to go in other place ou contry it's not possible for her except if a man stay next to her (with a 1 month old baby it's ok)
No possibility for for her to choose a work, or to chose her clothing, or to drive a car
Do u think it's a good morales or values ?

Before in europe we also make discrimination, in france the voting rights for the woman was obtained in 1944 (the land of the human right let me laf !!)

I said if they wan't to build a laws based upon muslim morales or values ok no problem !! I agree bt if this law make a discrimination to a man or a woman NO WAY !!

We are talking about discrimination

Best regards Sacha

dave
03-10-2004, 06:59 PM
but sacha, that is only one interpretation of muslim law, and there are many others. Mine does not say that. There are many, many muslims who have also studied the traditional sources and are trying to get rid of all these sexist and oppressive regulations created by men so they can hold on to their power. If you are in france try reading some articles by tariq ramadan (www.tariq-ramadan.net) and there are also many others trying to make Islam grow from those bad times.

Also regarding the woman thing - that happens in Saudi but nowhere else as far as i am aware? Only extreme factions. They say she must be accompanied by a male relative for her "safety" - yet even the youngest wife of the Prophet Muhammad after he died went in to war and she has no relatives with her, only hundreds of other fighters. So they take one idea and use it to oppress the women. It makes me so mad :mad:

dave

doc
03-10-2004, 08:06 PM
but sacha, that is only one interpretation of muslim law,
Exactly my point. Again, I reiterate, religion should be religion, law should be law.

Granted, our laws in the US are based upon certain morals and standards, though they've never been directly from our religions here.

shaolinstylee
03-10-2004, 10:59 PM
though they've never been directly from our religions here.

but most of them are very closely tied.. look at the whole abortion thing in the US. There are a lot of examples.. there is definately an influence in marital law from the christian church (I'm not saying the church influenced them into doing it a certain way, but that belief system carried over), etc.

doc
03-11-2004, 02:11 AM
Well, our founding father's no doubt came to this country, in part, to escape religious persecution, as I remember it from second or third grade. But, when putting together our constitution, they were very, very careful to ensure that there was a separation between church and state. And, they were also careful to make sure that each governing body within our government, had some sort of series of checks and balances, so that one part of government did not have absolute controlling power.

Compare that to Islamic law in these Arab countries.

dave
03-11-2004, 03:18 PM
Islamic Law is run on the principle of "shura" which is mutual consultancy in a governing body format and also an important part is "ijma" which is consensus of opinions reached (by those qualified in law) before something becomes binding or not.

so umm... again its the difference between Islamic law and dictatorship/despots in arab countries...

dave

shaolinstylee
03-11-2004, 07:10 PM
Oh, no doubt doc, but I'm just saying that the morals that they put together these laws with were influenced by there religous backrounds.