Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Kung Fu for fighting; Gong Fu origins

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Kung Fu for fighting; Gong Fu origins

    alright first of all, don't worry, this isn't another "Is Kung Fu Good For Fighting" question, although i suppose it's related. that being said:

    the shaolin temple was a monastery. if you go by the legend, the 18 hands of lohan were brought to the temple by Da Mo to aid the monks in physical health and spiritual development, or simplistically to "keep them awake while they meditated". subsequently, these 18 hands evolved through many channels into the deadly martial arts we know today. again, of course, this is only the legend.

    from what i gather, various chinese fighting styles were already in existance in both northern and southern china when the real Da Mo came to the real original shaolin temple. it seems like this is treated as a trivial difference, but for me in carries implications on the entire question of the actual effectiveness of martial arts in combat, and in fact, whether or not kung fu (which wasn't called either "kung fu" or "martial art" at the time, from what i can tell) was ever even intended for combat application.

    what i mean is this. if what we know as shaolin kung fu today originated in shaolin, and there were no other martial arts to speak of, then it was created in a vacuum and, it seems, had nothing to do with fighting. for instance, yoga has nothing to do with fighting, and it comes from india, which incidentally is where Da Mo was supposed to have come from. why, then, take these movements meant for spiritual cultivation and use them to invent the world's first organized system for fighting (or at least training to fight)? i mean who got that idea? a bunch of peaceful monks?

    but again, this is the legend. if there were other styles or beginnings of styles of martial arts throughout china already, it seems like it's extremely important to find out exactly what these styles were and where they were from. forgive me if someone has already done this. i'm saying this because, if they were formed in the rough-and-tumble common-folk villages, the application would almost certainly have been actual fighting. but if they were developed in other monasteries or as spiritual exercises, the same question arises as to What Sick Bastard turned them into violent patterns for fighting.

    basically, here's my question: what evidence is there to show that the original, bona fide Shaolin monks ever had any intention of using this stuff to fight?

    i'm asking because, it seems to me, moving to emulate 5 animals, all of them bearing religious significance to begin with, in prearranged sets that are practiced alone against invisible opponents, seems like such a deeply spiritual thing with so many religious implications, that if i were, say, a monk, i don't think it would ever occur to me to do it against a real live human being.

    i could go on about this for a while but i would like to give you all a chance to respond, and i hope you do. just for the record this is in no way an attack. i'm currently taking Hung Gar classes, and i am a firm believer that training in traditional martial arts (the legitimate ones), including Shaolin gungfu, can give you tools that would be valuable in a real fight, mostly dependant on the individual's own hard work. however i see this as a relatively inconsequential benefit of the martial arts.

    that's it. i would greatly appreciate any response or references to further reading on this.

    - zach

    p.s. i do, however, use kung fu to cure cancer and see through walls into ladies' locker rooms.
    p.p.s. jesus christ i'm long-winded when i'm bored.

  • #2
    Shoalin gong fu is meant for fighting but to protect one self and others who can not defend them selfs.Also gong fu was devloped to give the monks phisical exercises so they would not become fat,and also so the monks would be able to defend them selfs against robers and animals that could harm them.
    lil monk

    Comment


    • #3
      well that just clears everything up.

      Comment


      • #4
        shaolin masters

        there were martial arts in china before damo, but overall, it was the shaolin temple and wutang schools who lead the developement of martial arts in china for most of its history..of course there were lots of other martial arts in china, but for the most part what we see today is derived from the external(shaolin) and internal(wu tang) methods

        "what evidence is there to show that the original, bona fide Shaolin monks ever had any intention of using this stuff to fight? "

        theres lots of evidence, the best being the fact that the methods of fighting developed in shaolin and wutang are still present today as effective fighting arts in the form of styles and systems such as; hung ga, jow ga, mo ga, choy ga, lou ga, choy li fut, wing chun, pak mei, praying mantis, bak si lum, tai ji, xing yi, pa kwa etc

        besides all of that, which really is just the most blatant and obvious, there are also endless storys and legends of shaolin masters and there encounters of bandits, animals, other masters, invadeing manchus or mongols, japanese, tibetans etc etc

        what you have to understand is, the health and spiritual benefits of these arts are for the most part byproducts of training these arts..really in the past you didnt even begin to study kung fu unless you were healthy in the first place, and in the shaolin and wu tang schools you usually wouldnt be taught unless you were ridciulously humble and meek and obedient..otherwise you could really mess stuff up..espcially since there were no guns..

        anyhow..you train hung ga, if you dont see the combat aspects of your art then i suggest you find another teacher, because hung ga is known for being a formidable system of fighting

        amitabha
        "did you ask me to consider dick with you??" blooming tianshi lotus

        Comment


        • #5
          i do train hung gar and of course i see the combat aspects of my art. and besides, hung gar has gone through a few changes since its beginnings in shaolin, so there's no disputing that today it's a combat-effective system.

          i'm being too vague. my question is, were the combat applications of gongfu an invention of the monks themselves, or later generations of gongfu masters after the sacking of the first temple?

          maestro, if you have some web links or something where i can read some of those old legends i'd be grateful. more important than what the particular legends say would be when they were first written. if they were created before the original temple was destroyed, and involved the monks using their gongfu for combat, that would pretty much clear up the question for me. thanks.

          - zach

          Comment


          • #6
            shaolin

            "i'm being too vague. my question is, were the combat applications of gongfu an invention of the monks themselves, or later generations of gongfu masters after the sacking of the first temple?"

            put simply, yes. the monks did invent the combat applications of shaolin gong fu, i dont really see how you could expect "later generations" to do this. what sense would that make? none

            my advice is you do your research, because ive done mine..and ive still got vast amounts left to learn.

            the legends and such are a dime a dozen, ive read them at various websites, books, forums, people etc etc

            alot of chinese cinema is based on old chinese martial arts legends to for example the wong fei hung movies, or the fong sai yuk movies, or the ten tigers of kwantung stuff, wong kai ying(WFH father) is used to, shaolin is such a common theme as is wudang etc etc

            but, note the movies are a little of a stretch alot of the time..not to say that all of the martial arts are a stretch..really just some of the scenarios like a thug coming out of now where and wong fei hung just beating the hell out of the 30 or so friends the guys got

            it could have happened and, there are storys of masters fighting off 30+ attackers but for the most part, the stuff like that in the movie is basically fiction..obviously

            amitabha
            "did you ask me to consider dick with you??" blooming tianshi lotus

            Comment


            • #7
              think about it this way. you can't really be too true to shaolin tradition if you just look at the premature, stagnant embryonic stages of what became shaolin. the whole point, especially from a chan perspective (of course, this is just how i, dogchow understand it) is to take something and develop it into something better. it has no beginning or end, which i would attribute to why it is really kinda difficult to say exactly when "shaolin martial arts" actually came about.
              you're completely right; the fetal roots of it, while important, don't dictate the identity of shaolin gongfu. just as the united states constitution doesn't dictate the identity of the united states, and the bible doesn't dictate the identity of christianity. gongfu is a moving, changing thing, as it should be.

              but modern chinese gongfu (i mean traditional shaolin gongfu, as it is taught today) is a very unique collection of fighting systems. most foreign systems (japanese, korean, french, etc.) don't even being to approach the areas of tiger claws and crane beaks. and it seems like shaolin philosophy is what introduced this unique flavor to the chinese martial arts.

              so it becomes important what the original shaolin monks intended these movements for, because these unique Shaolin aspects are still very much a part of traditional gongfu. it's not like the system was ever just torn down and completely redesigned from scratch.

              - zach

              Comment


              • #8
                Maestro

                well it would make plenty of sense if chinese villagers, amazed at the wisdom and incredible abilities of the shaolin monks they saw, studied under these monks and slowly changed the system from a peaceful set of movements into something used for fighting, simply because of their environments. at the very least, it's possible, and deserves some looking into.

                anyway, these dime-a-dozen legends and stories are proof just as much as the jackie chan and jet li movies are historical fact. we've all heard them before, but they just don't prove anything in themselves. they could have been invented years after the shaolin temple was gone, for all we know. which is why legends and stories with dates attached to them would be of some use (even though they still couldn't undeniably prove anything).

                i was just wondering if you knew where to find these.

                i've done my share of lay research, but i was trying to appeal to someone who had done this professionally, or who knew how to refer me to someone who had done this professionally. there are lots of informative articles on doc's website here (and i still haven't read them all) but they don't seem to address my question. maybe i should have put this thread under questions for doc.

                take it easy -

                - zach
                Last edited by zachsan; 03-29-2004, 05:50 PM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  I find interesting to note that the legend often says that the monks learned Damo's stuff because they would fall asleep during the meditation practices. It sounds funny to me as an ex-monk who spent time doing meditation (sitting, standing, lying down, and walking) throughout the day.

                  I have been doing martial arts for half my life now; however, when I was a monk I just didn't practice martial arts as much. It was hard to do when it wasn't in the schedule. But falling asleep in meditation, in my opinion, has little to do with how much physical exercise you get but more on how determined you are to practice. When you are determined to practice meditation, then your mind tends to be very bright throughout the day and you even tend to need less sleep. When I sit I rarely ever feel tired, and it has little to do with physical exercise.

                  With regards to that little comment about getting fat; most that I have met are pretty skinny. Most Mahayana monks will practice vegetarianism to some degree and eat only 1-3 meals a day; especially since the food is only given out to the community at set times, it is unlikely that they would get fat without a lot of physical exercise.

                  Some monastic traditions do a lot of work and some don't; so these things also need to be taken into affect. I think we need to try to re-look at what really might have been happening with monks at Shaolinsi before blindly accept the legends. It's as if in meditation; you have a thought but you don't necessarily believe in that thought, you recognize it and let it be as it is. Then you can go further in your understanding.

                  peace
                  "For some reason I'm in a good mood today. I haven't left the house yet, though. "

                  "fa hui, you make buddhism sexy." -Zachsan

                  "Friends don't let friends do Taekwondo." -Nancy Reagan

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Fa Hui

                    this is all i'm tryin to say! only when you say it, it sounds so much more, uh, enlightened?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      QUOTE: ZACHSAN
                      "just as the united states constitution doesn't dictate the identity of the united states, and the bible doesn't dictate the identity of christianity."



                      I tend to disagree as these certainly contribute to dictate what a true christian or true american would stand for. It is when we try to apply only bits and pieces that we deviate from the true original form.
                      Nothing is more frightening than ignorance in action - Goethe

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        what i mean is that there's much more to the united states than its constitution, and there's much more to christianity than the bible. but they were both bad metaphors, as one involved politics and the other religion. if i'm gonna use a metaphor, i'm supposed to use something that's very common-sense-like. sorry.

                        - zach

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          misunderstood

                          legends arent meant to be taken literally, they are meant to expound different aspects of a particular martial art through fanciful storys, like describing powerful kicks by saying "li peng an kicked through a 1 ton rock"

                          its not really that hard to understand where these storys are coming from and why

                          the damo story is simple, whether or not the monks fell asleep during mediation makes no difference, the theme of the story is; shaolin temple monks before the arrival of damo were undisciplined, with the introduction of damo and his teachings, the monks became disciplined mentally/physically

                          furthermore, id like to add that the chinese influence on buddhism and martial arts adds a particular flavor to the TCMA that wouldnt be found really in any other culture besides china, even if damo had visited a foreign temple in say thailand instead of shaolin..really, what we see of the TCMA today is just a compilation of centurys of chinese thought/history, landscape, ritual beliefs/practice etc etc

                          ALSO, the I-Ching's influence, and the famous "animal fighting" is actually not of chinese origin, its historically documented that africans practiced and imitated the movements of animals to increase there combat efficiency, aswell as isolating "animal principles" in the conciousness to develope incredible fighting prowess, doubled with the use of breathing techinques to cultivate energy

                          aswell as the fact that the I-ching which has had a huge influence on chinese martial arts (taoist inparticular) was not a chinese invention but actually a mesopotamian invention

                          "as recorded in the Library of Ashurbanipal (700B.C.E), the I-Ching was addressed as the "tablet of Destiny", Known and utilized by the great antediluvian monarch Enmeduranki, the seventh of the aboriginal kings of Sippar. One of the oldest oracles of antiquity, The I-Ching was constructed by the Black Akkado sumerians of Elam-babylonia and is dated circa 2800B.C.E. This is substantiated by philologist Terrien De Lacouperie in his translation of the west asian language, Chinese custom and various historical documents"

                          i could go on and on but its up to YOU to do your own research, i can tell you obviously have not done this

                          anyway, the choice is your, talk all you want about the topics at hand, or go find the truth of all things which is always available..in one form or another

                          amitabha
                          "did you ask me to consider dick with you??" blooming tianshi lotus

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            zach- boddhidarma (and im just gonna go by the generic story here) came from India. if im not mistaken, the original 18 hands were based at least somewhat on yoga, or yoga principles. i dont know the 18 hands, but i imagine they have things in them specifically designed to either attack or increase usability of the body for attack. Yoga does tremendous benefit to the body- moreso i would say than the 18 hands- so why would boddhidarma bring something that is probably specifically martial and not just stay with something that had already been in use and was already well developed?

                            now, again ill say i dont know this set, but it would be interesting to see if there are things like leg or arm extensions that can easily translate into an attack more than just a stretch. as i mentioned, if it were just spiritual and health then he should ahve stuck with yoga.

                            given the circumstances within and about the tample- it's isolated location, the unfit condition of the monks, the political climate, etc- my question would be: what good reason would he have NOT to make it specifically martial?

                            from here, though, i would also ask this: rather than try to find non-combat roots in the "deep main idea" of shaolin gong fu, maybe we should look to the leaves? maybe the softening of the system to something more meditational than combat is closer to the current (nowadays) historical pole of the shaolin lineage than it is to the embryonic one? see what i mean? maybe not- i often dont manage to say what i am trying to say, but if u do good.

                            anyway, awaiting a response-
                            DC


                            PS: of course there is the very likely case that my understanding of the history is just completely out of whack ?

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I doubt very much that Damo had anything to do with the martial arts orientation of the temple. Now, where did I write that aspect of the history...
                              Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

                              "You're just a jaded cynical mother****er...." Jeffpeg

                              (more comments in my User Profile)
                              russbo.com


                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X