shaolin forms differences

[shaolintiger]

Hi everybody...

I have a question that I always ask in a lot of shaolin kungfu sites,but no body answered me!
So please if anybody knows the answer please answer me because it is a very important in shaolin kungfu training.

I always see shaolin masters doing the same form but different,then I asked my master [shi yan qiang] about it..he said that every master teaches in his own way...for example...shaolin xiaohong chuan,every master does it in a different way.I asked another masters about it they said that I can mix up from different masters.For example....the movement in xiaohong chuan that has a pubu...some masters like master she de cheng....he just cross his hand in mabu then he slaps his thighs then he continues.My master does not do it like that,he goes down in pu bu then he continues.So is it OK if I mix up as I like,if I wanted to do like de cheng I do it and if I like to do like my master I do it? or I just have to do it as it is?and what is the 18 forms.?..I heared that xiaohongchuan is from it.
Thank you very much.

[shaolinstylee]

I'd stick to what your teacher is showing you for now. When you get to a higher level, and get to play with the techs. some, then you can start adding your own flavor, and modifications.

[jopol]

I have an idea on why the shaolin masters do the forms differently.

Since finding applications is a part of practising forms, could it be that the masters find different applications and hence modify the form to better fit for the application found?

At least for me, I feel that I have better control and more power when I think about the applications while doing a form.

Seems reasonable, no?

[doc]

I noticed something about some of the monks, which may answer your question.

Shi Xing Hong taught me Da Lohan. The first half, which was all he knew. The first half is the "pretty" half. What he showed me was quick and very fluid. Tremendous form.

Problem was, it wasn't the entire first half of Da Lohan. It was the first half of Da Lohan, trimmed, so that it would go "faster". He was concerned with speed. No doubt about that.

DeCheng then taught me the entire Da Lohan, Yi Lu and Er Lu (both halves). DeCheng is a stickler for teaching the forms exactly as he was taught them by Shi Su Yuan and Shi Su Xi. The first half, Yi Lu, had just a few more steps than what Xinghong taught me, not a big deal, but, I could see how it slowed the form down. Also, these steps did not have obvious applications (though, they do have applications).

Later on, when I was going through another form, Tong Long Chuan, with Xinghong, he did this again. Changed it a few years later. Did so, because he thought, as he told me, that the form moved more quickly "this way".

I've noticed that XingWei does some forms with a more modern, "wushu" emphasis. Things like hand placement. But, remember, Xingwei was head of the international performance team for a while, the main star. Performance was the emphasis, not continuation of tradition. You're going to see different alterations, from the younger to the older.

The older older monks, like WanHeng, used to do Shao Hong Chuan standing up. No low mabu. Shao Hong Chuan, from a purely traditional standpoint, is actually done in a more standing position than how you commonly see it now. Again, modern wushu and performances: lower is "prettier".

Well, as I see it, and as I've seen it in one of the major American martial arts schools that I spent ten years in (which changed their "traditional" forms on a biannual basis, at least... ) teachers change things for various reasons. The emphasis on performance arts in China, with the younger monks, led Xinghong, in my opinion, to alter the forms that he taught me. DeCheng, an older monk, was more interested in tradition, and maintaining that tradition. The teachers at this American martial arts system, changed it because the head master like the new way better, or, changed it because "he felt it worked better this way". I've also heard excuses from some of the local teachers, that "my girlfriend thinks this looks better". Well, this is why I left this American school system, and stuck with Shaolin.

The older monks tend to keep things more traditional; that's how they were taught. The younger monks, who are more concerned about performance issues, might be more interested in altering things, much as "wushu" has altered traditional forms. I've noticed that ego plays a role, some people feel more "powerful" by changing forms for their students (the "my way is better than this", as if a thousand year old form is "made better" by some 25 year old guy...). There are many reasons why teachers alter things; sometimes, they mix styles, sometimes they alter things because it's easier, and thus more economically feasible for schools (American students in American schools like to advance "easily", traditional forms can be more complicated to do).

The form should not be changed to fit the application. The form can offer many applications, with minor alterations of movements. Changing the form to fit the application is the wrong way to go; you keep the original maneuver, and then learn to alter it in many ways, so that the applications can come from it. If you alter the original form, so that it fits an application, think about how many other original and possible applications are lost.

Sorr that this is a little disorganized, it's late here...

[jopol]

"The form can offer many applications, with minor alterations of movements."

That was exactly what I meant. , I did'nt mean that you alter the form to near unrecognition, but merely "polish it" to
get a better feel for the application you might have in mind for any given move. For example, you might use an open hand instead of a fist, or perhaps even just emphazise a curtain move, while another practitioner might use the same move and emphazise a combination with a presceding or following move, rather than the move alone. The first guy would then (at this given time of doing the form) see an application in that move, while the other guy see an application in the combination of moves, hence different distribution of power in doing the form.
Of course this might differ for each time you do the form, all depending on the application you have in mind while doing it.

Or should applications be in your mind at all while doing the form?

PS. The differences I had in mind between masters are the minor ones, not those developed between generations to better comply with modern wushu. I've seen for example the form "Shaolin chang chuan" (listed as "long combat tecnique" in the video section) be performed differently between masters of the same generation, and they do differ, allthough ever so slightly.

[doc]

Nothing should be in your mind when you're doing the form. Other than, the form. I feel that it's kind of a form of meditation. Remember the ever present association of Buddhism. That's the beauty of forms, in my mind.

Minor changes can be significant. Consider the open hand alteration. Modern wushu changes the position of the hand "strikes", into palm strikes, as opposed to, well, the japanese call it a knife hand strike (hitting with the medial aspect of the hand). The palm strikes might be prettier, but they're not as effective combat wise. In my mind, this alteration of the traditional form Shao Hong Chuan, makes some pretty significant changes with respect to its combat application.

The minor changes you refer to, might simply be these "wushu" changes. In some cases, the difference between wushu and traditional is slight, and not obvious. I can see the difference between XingWei and DeCheng, even though DeCheng taught XingWei (XingWei altered some of what he's learned, for his activities on the performance team years ago).

[xing_jian108]

Younger monks should be slapped in the back of the head.... In my opinion.

That's really gay for them to change it like that. It's seen on this site in the video of Yin Shou Gun done by Shi Yong Bin or something like that. Whoever he is. I think he's Shi Xing Hong's student. Anyway, in the part where you run back then jump and turn 180 in the air and hit down to the ground with the staff end.. The next move is Gong Bu to the right and hit with the staff tip. Then Gong Bu to the left and hit with the staff tip. Although, he doesn't do this. He does some gay little jump and hit both ways like he's trying to be in a movie fight scene. I don't like it and I still think those younger monks and disciples should be slapped upside the head for changing like that. It's traditional Shao Lin Gong Fu. If you want to have fun with forms. Go have fun with Wu Shu forms. Don't make traditional forms into modern Wu Shu garbage. Where are all the older generation monks while this is going on? They should be the ones to slap them upside the head and tell them they can never leave the temple until they do it the right way. I think soon enough, Shao Lin Gong Fu is going to be modern Wu Shu. All the older generation monks are going to pass on. And we will be left with these little fairy guys jumping around like it's some sort of dance. Shao Lin Gong Fu will have a very bad reputation from these guys.

[Heng Yi]

Try breathing Xing Jian it might help you....

[xing_jian108]

I tried. Thank you. But my breathing doesn't keep Shao Lin forms from going Wu Shu..

[doc]

Well, part of the changes that you see have nothing to do with the influence of wushu; they are due to the fact that these guys want to go faster. As I've said before, I've seen some monks (Xinghong) alter forms to be able to increase their speed, the idea being, that it's "better".

[Maestro]

"I always see shaolin masters doing the same form but different,then I asked my master [shi yan qiang] about it..he said that every master teaches in his own way...for example...shaolin xiaohong chuan,every master does it in a different way.I asked another masters about it they said that I can mix up from different masters.For example....the movement in xiaohong chuan that has a pubu...some masters like master she de cheng....he just cross his hand in mabu then he slaps his thighs then he continues.My master does not do it like that,he goes down in pu bu then he continues.So is it OK if I mix up as I like,if I wanted to do like de cheng I do it and if I like to do like my master I do it? or I just have to do it as it is?and what is the 18 forms.?..I heared that xiaohongchuan is from it.
Thank you very much."

alot of talk about shaolin masters..

imo when you can do the forms as well as they can, then its time to consider changeing ****..otherwise, stick to what you were taught

amitabha

[xing_jian108]

Yes, the think it's "better". But why is it better to take out parts of a form or modify it to make it go faster? It's not better. It's just nice to them because they like it to go fast and look pretty for performance. Which is what modern Wu Shu is all about. So pretty much, it does have to do with Wu Shu. They aren't changing it just for fun. They change it for performance. They change it for what it looks like. But if it was meant to look that way it would have been made that way. That's not what a traditional form was for. These guys change it for the sake of modern Wu Shu performance. Forgetting about the real reason the forms were made the way they were. Which is bad.

[jopol]

One hardly dare ask how many applications get lost for the sake of their speed.
It almost sounds like they don't care about the meditative aspect of the form.
It's like xing jian says...soon the word "traditional" will mean nothing in this context, it will just be a sales argument. That really sucks.

[doc]

"Meditative aspect of the form. "

Very astute. Very astute. Glad someone reminded all of us of this very important aspect of gong fu.

Very nice Jopol.

[hvillarruel]

The Ark Wong (five animals) kung fu that i have practiced it's full of claws and intrincated movements. I do the forms slow, almost like tai chi, to just to feel de Chi in my body. Also doing the forms in slow motion, you can root the body to the earth. Later I do the forms at "regular" speed, in a way I can taste ( feel ) of what i am doing. Later, i found that my fighting skills got better. Doing the forms in a slow motion give the hit of the great Chin-na applications and keeping my foots rooted to the ground give more power. When i practice fast, it's more dificult for me to keep rooted, but i do my best. : )

This year i am seeing shaoling monks like Shi De Cheng, performing at high speed and keeping rooted. He really is a Master.
But unfortunatly i have seen other disciples and younger monks that are flying ( when they are not supposed to fly ). I think they concentrate in MORE speed and less quallity. It is a shame.

The Shaolin forms that I am studing now are more simple that Ark Wong's. That likes me. I feel that if done in a correct way, you can have a more free Chi flow in your body than my forms.

Even in my style the same forms are a little different. But do not worry, it is the flavor of every Master. But I agree that there are some flavors that I don't agree, like the modern wushu flavor.
But let me tell you that when I was young, I liked moden wushu and tryed to perfom my forms in a wushu like movement. Things chage with age...