RMCAT, and other stuff too numerous to mention

[zachsan]

just wondering if anyone here has ever heard or read about something called RMCAT ("rocky mountain combat applications training"), not to be confused with RCAT ("rapid combat assault tactics", an american krav-maga like system taught to marines). here's the site, in case anyone's interested.

apparently, the focus of the training is not so much specific techniques (although it does cover certain techniques to some extent), but creating stressful situations and having the student learn how to channel what they call the "adrenaline dump" in an effective manner. i like that idea.

however, one of the other ideas espoused in this training is that, when the brain is high on adrenaline, its ability to control fine motor functions is greatly diminished, and you will probably be reduced to the state of throwing a few simple techniques repeatedly with great force. therefore, it's pretty much pointless to practice techniques that take any degree of skill to pull off, no matter how many times you practice them. this seems to be in contradiction to an idea that a lot of martial arts masters swear by, that is, that you will be able to pull off just about anything in a stressful situation, no matter how complex, as long as you've practiced it enough. not to mention the thinking that enough meditative training will allow you to remain calm in any situation, which ideal i aspire to, but which reality i'm not quite sure i buy myself.

there's been a lot of discussion on this thread i think about how complex your techniques can get, considering the limitations provided by a live, resisting opponent, but not so much discussion considering the limitations that stress impose upon the brain.

i think it'd be very interesting to hear the gang's thoughts on this.

[daodejing]

I don't know about all that.....

I've pulled off some pretty advanced techniques in the middle of judo matches (what I would consider a stressful situation) without even knowing it. The idea is to understand the principle of the technique, and not just one specific application, so that if the situation arises where you need to use the technique, there is no thought, you simply do it. Like breathing. You practice until you forget how to do it, and it happens unconsciously. IMHO, that's how you do Qin Na properly, practice until you forget how to do them. Then someone grabs your wrist and before you know what's going on, you've got the attacker on the ground with a dislocated elbow and two broken fingers.

[zachsan]

well, i say "stress", but really they're talking about fear.

i mean, i'm not too tough to say that every time i've been close to a real fight, there's been some degree of fear involved. i've never experienced that sensation in any kind of sparring match. all the posturing and intimidation that goes on before a fight, even if you know it's not really gonna end up as a fight, triggers something that gets you going. it's a tradition as old as the animal kingdom - before you fight, you try to scare the other guy away. so it triggers some animal reactions. that's a big part of the philosophy of the place, which i agree with.

but at the same time, i know the exact sensation you're talking about, when you're staring across the mat at a guy, and next thing you know, he's on the ground, and you have no idea how you did it. but still, you have no problem taking the credit for it.

the things is, i've never seriously practiced throws of any kind. so did my awareness of my body, achieved through other martial practice, allow me to improvise and do that? was it just luck or natural talent? and would i ever be able to pull that off if it were more than just a friendly match?

[daodejing]

Well, what was the first style you trained heavily in? Many more traditional styles incorporate throws and joint locking techniques into basic forms, but many people have simply forgotten the applications. For example, the hand crossing movement followed by drawing the hands back into fists by the sides which you see in the beggining of some wing chun forms, could be practiced as qigong, but it could be applied as a double finger break.

Maybe you knew things without knowing you knew them.

Honestly, I've experienced the "adrenalin dump" feeling the same way at the beggining of a judo match as I have when about to speak in public, or when in a situation I was sure was escalating into a fight.

When I practice, I do some form work, but in general I do my best to move without thinking, while incorporating basic technique into that movement. What ends up happening is a long sequence of freeform gongfu, though when I work with swords it get's kind of wushuish. The way I see it, it's just a matter of being able to dance to the rhythm of your body, and break your opponents rhythm.

[zachsan]

this is kind of a tangent to what i was trying to address in the first place, but what the hell.

the first style i trained in heavily was tang soo do, kind of like tae kwon do but much less sport-oriented. later after that i trained in american kenpo, and the experiences i'm talking about happened mostly while i was practicing kenpo or soon afterwards. we briefly dealt with hip throws in tang soo do, but not much, and we didn't touch throws in my kenpo school.

i personally believe that seriously doing any kind of martial training, if you really understand the basic principles of what you're doing, can let you improvise techniques on the fly that have nothing to do with anything you've actually practiced. i don't know how many people agree with me, but to me, what's important is how much you practice, not necessarily what you practice, when it comes to implementing techniques. after all, even the most impressive "secrets" are just based on the same basic mechanics.this is why i laugh at people that think they can beat someone just because they think their style is "better". even some looney McDojo masters can beat a lot of genuine gongfu students, because training is training.

this, to me (someone who doesn't necessarily believe in qi as an extranormal force), is the great idea behind those internal arts that focus on standing meditations and the like. the movements might resemble martial techniques, but when practiced, focus more heavily on getting to know - to the most minute detail - exactly how your body works. that is, pretty much exactly what you mentioned, getting to know the rhythm of your body.

which brings me back to my original question. if, under pressure, our minds are boiled down to their most primitive states (the "fight or flight" response), how much use are the higher facilitiies of our brains that are involved in meditation? it seems like you're saying that the theory behind the RMCAT school is just wrong, and that we can train our minds to react as a whole, automatically, even under stress. while that seems to be very much in accordance with eastern thought, it seems to contradict the experiences of most people who are involved in real life-or-death experiences, like policemen and soldiers that describe the "tunnel vision" effect and the tendency to freeze up.

even very, very experienced professionals go through these responses. when you hear them talk about how they cope with it, they usually refer to tricks such as forcing themselves to look around to break up tunnel-vision, etc. are you saying that they could bypass this entirely with martial arts practice?

[agreenknight]

I would think with martial arts condition, it might make them faster. Not every, situation that would automatically have this effect. True, I think our bodies to pump up adrenaline, but there might be alot of situations, such as when someone's got your by the throat that if you don't know how to get out of you, you my friend would be in alot of hurt. If your taken by surprise for instance, will there be time to get your adrenaline going?

[agreenknight]

What about muscle memory? Like to fight with out thinking? If one could do that even if they are pumped up on adrenaline they wouldn't work. Take boxing, boxers develop quicklier than, I probably did in Karate, yet I have more options too. I could keep them at bay.

Thing is for the movements to become more natural. Sure, pressure points might not work to well, like if someone hit in the groin, and they might not have alot of effect on them. Also, what if the guy has bit hit in the groin so many times that he doesn't really feel it. But if you break someone's arm, they probably would feel it even pumped on adrenaline. So condition would help. Also, if someone is used to going down, well. Later on I'm told, it's Elbows, and Knees.

[daodejing]

Its not that things like tunnel vision and freezing up don't happen in stressful situations. They definately happen.
Its not that a meditative mind involves any "higher" brain functioning. The way I meditate, it doesn't. It involves letting go of "higher" brain functioning and just being in my body.

In this regard, one purpose of ma training is to eliminate hesitancy while under stress. To allow the mind to be inactive so that the body can execute any activity neccessary for its survival.

Racing mind, frozen body. Still your mind, and your body can move at the speed of your breath. The interdependence of yin and yang.

[emre]

Originally posted by zachsan

which brings me back to my original question. if, under pressure, our minds are boiled down to their most primitive states (the "fight or flight" response), how much use are the higher facilitiies of our brains that are involved in meditation? it seems like you're saying that the theory behind the RMCAT school is just wrong, and that we can train our minds to react as a whole, automatically, even under stress. while that seems to be very much in accordance with eastern thought, it seems to contradict the experiences of most people who are involved in real life-or-death experiences, like policemen and soldiers that describe the "tunnel vision" effect and the tendency to freeze up.

even very, very experienced professionals go through these responses. when you hear them talk about how they cope with it, they usually refer to tricks such as forcing themselves to look around to break up tunnel-vision, etc. are you saying that they could bypass this entirely with martial arts practice?

That's what Chinese martial arts training is all about, especially the higher forms of it that have been developed by Buddhists and Daoists.

You have to realize that without effective elimination of the adrenal response, it would be impossible to apply taiji or bagua techniques since they depend on complete mental and physical relaxation to operate. It is thus proven, historically, by the fact that these martial arts have been tested in life or death combat situations, that the fight-or-flight syndrome can be overcome.

It takes a lot of effort, and a lot of meditation though, because you have to essentially re-program your nervous system against the way it's naturally wired to work. This is also why whether Shaolin or Taiji techniques are "too fancy for combat" is a common topic of discussion, most people who learn them nowadays never go through the process of dealing with the adrenaline rush.

[agreenknight]

If we didn't have to reprogram our nervous system, would we have the same effect? Or I wonder, if it's that we had the abilities naturally, but as we grew up, we lost them?

I was also wondering, perhaps he might mean karate.

[agreenknight]

like policemen and soldiers that describe the "tunnel vision" effect and the tendency to freeze up.

You said they fight this up using tricks, couldn't martial arts training help with this? Originally, alot of martial arts training was military oriented.

[zachsan]

the case for just how military-oriented they used to be is questionable. some styles were definitely taught to the various armies, but these were probably not the focus of military training. also, almost all of the styles taught today were created by civilians, such as folk masters or monks (or even gangsters, for that matter). some of them were surely adopted by the military, but with a few exceptions, they weren't created for the military. things like horse riding, swimming, running, general endurance and systems of communication were probably stressed more than individual techniques. in japan, some of these things were actually considered 'martial arts', but they're not taught anymore today as such, and they didn't have much to do with shaolin.

anyway, can martial arts training provide specific tricks for overcoming certain aspects of the adrenaline response? i really don't know, but that's exactly what the RMCAT system purports to do.

the difference is that asian martial arts don't provide specific answers to specific responses, but the goal of overcoming or controlling the response entirely. this is a philosophy that comes from taoism and buddhism. the ideal of perfect mastery is pursued, whether or not that ideal is ever truly attainable; because, after all, someone who is further along in the pursuit of that ideal, even if they haven't attained it, will surely have the advantage over someone who's just started, or has pursued it half-heartedly.

i think that's a great philosophy, but the problem is, there's no science behind it. what emre indirectly calls "historical proof" is a collection of stories and legends. i'm sure that many of these are true, and i've been through a few anectodal experiences myself that seemed almost superhuman at the time, but that's not justification for the empirical claim that eventually the adrenaline response can be completely handled. and if it can't, then one would do much better to learn how to adequately handle it, than to attempt to overcome it.

[emre]

Originally posted by zachsan
i think that's a great philosophy, but the problem is, there's no science behind it. what emre indirectly calls "historical proof" is a collection of stories and legends. i'm sure that many of these are true, and i've been through a few anectodal experiences myself that seemed almost superhuman at the time, but that's not justification for the empirical claim that eventually the adrenaline response can be completely handled. and if it can't, then one would do much better to learn how to adequately handle it, than to attempt to overcome it.

It's not stories and legends. Chinese martial arts have been tested in combat for hundreds of years.

There are actually training methods in the internal arts to deal with this issue. There are meditation techniques for working with what the Taoists call "the emotional body", to deal with the root of what it is that makes you scared and triggers the fight-or-flight response.

Why do you think Chinese martial arts put so much emphasis on the mastery of the breathing process? Have you ever seen a person who was scared but breathing calmly? Chinese martial arts always talk about "sinking the qi to the dan tien", why do you think that is? That is a method of controlling your emotional state by way of manipulating your energy body.

These are not myths, legends or stories. They are skills that can be developed by anyone who puts in the necessary time and effort.

[daodejing]

Amen! Can I get a witness from the congregation?

[zachsan]

It's not stories and legends. Chinese martial arts have been tested in combat for hundreds of years.

i'm not saying that the techniques aren't combat-effective. i'm saying that it hasn't been proven that the adrenaline response can be negated through meditation.

There are actually training methods in the internal arts to deal with this issue. There are meditation techniques for working with what the Taoists call "the emotional body", to deal with the root of what it is that makes you scared and triggers the fight-or-flight response.

again, that's a metaphysical answer to a metaphysical problem, not science.

Why do you think Chinese martial arts put so much emphasis on the mastery of the breathing process? Have you ever seen a person who was scared but breathing calmly? Chinese martial arts always talk about "sinking the qi to the dan tien", why do you think that is? That is a method of controlling your emotional state by way of manipulating your energy body.

taking a few deep breaths to stay calm is not a martial secret. it's scientifically proven to help maintain presence of mind and to keep from becoming too emotional in stressful situations. what's not proven is that it will eliminate the negative effects of adrenaline entirely, or that any special way of breathing will allow you to remain in complete control of yourself in even the most dangerous situations.

some people can exercise great judgment while under pressure, but that comes from being subjected to stressful situations a number of times and learning how to react to their own fear and adrenaline. it could be that meditation helps, but there's no scientific evidence that it alone (or, for that matter, energy or subtle body work) will make the adrenaline dump manageable.

as for energy bodies...