Wushu-->Kung Fu?

[shaolin_animal]

I wanted to ask people what the thought about Wushu, I realize this has been discussed many times, but I was suprised to find that no one had brought up the idea of trying to convert some of the wushu, back into its traditional forms. If wushu is derived from tradition, perhaps it is possible to attempt to bring it back in that direction. Also in many of the wushu discussions I noticed that some of its biggest opponents conceded that someone experianced with some more traditional kung fu, would be able to make some use of it in a fight. Also Yang Jwing Ming, who seems to be relativly respected, in all his books refers to what he is doing as wushu, but I beleive I read somewhere that his forms are traditional, and they do seem useful to me. Doc has said before that in wushu the stances are too low, and the punches overextended, well if we modified the forms slightly could the combat effectivness be increased? Any ideas on this are welcome.

[emre]

The reason Dr. Yang calls his forms Wushu is because that's what martial arts traditionally used to be called in China.

Now that Wushu is also the name for a gymnastic competitive sport, traditional martial artists do either of two things, some keep calling the traditional arts Wushu, to try and prevent the new sport from completely owning that term, others see it as a lost battle and don't use the name Wushu anymore to refer to the traditional arts, to avoid confusion.

Dr. Yang belongs to the first camp, he doesn't want to hand over the name Wushu to the gymnastic sport, so tries to educate people on the true meaning of Wushu. He's actually very saddened by the bastardization of traditional arts that is contemporary Wushu. He always mentions how Wushu competition forms are all fluff and movements are linked together in ways that don't make sense from a martial point of view.

So, when we have the traditional forms that modern Wushu forms were derived from in the first place, why try to traditionalize the new Wushu forms? I see no point.

Besides, the problem with modern Wushu is not just the forms, but the whole mindset and training mentality that comes with it. A modern Wushu competitor may do a beautiful looking Eagle Claw form, but he hasn't practiced any Eagle Claw Gong, so he would break his fingers if he tried to apply any of those techniques. Wushu performers usually don't train the essence of whatever forms they're practicing, they just learn how to look good.

[mortal]

I agree with everything you said except breaking fingers doing eagle claw. I think grabbing someones throat will leave your fingers intact. I do get your point about the gongs though.

[doc]

I think I wrote about this issue a long time ago, in the Shaolin FAQ. Also, there might be a relevant discussion about it in the ARCHIVE (use button above). It can be confusing, beware the difference between the terminology, and the connotation.

[shaolin_animal]

Okay, but if we did the wushu, and trained for conditioning , strength, and internal power, in your example about the eagle claw, would some of the movements in those forms become useful? The reason I ask this is because I cannot afford real classes, but I have several books, with forms. Some I beleive might be wushu, and some I am sure are traditional. I have taken other martial arts in the past (karate, tang soo do, tai chi), but I have decide to focus only on the shaolin. I don't like the idea of the books that might be wushu going to waste, so I want to know if with the right training in addition to forms that might be trad. or wushu, (I think it is about half and half) can I utilize these in the real world. Even if the wushu forms string movements together in ways that don't make sense, with the right training, can some of the individual movements have a real world use? From some of the small experiance I have, to me it seems as though if the movements are not used literally in a real fight, but parts are used they have some effectivness.

[mortal]

In my not so humble opinion you can not learn traditional shaolin from a book. Especially the fighting aspects of it. There is much more to shaolin training then fighting. It is pretty hard to explain. It is more like an experiance in shaolin training. You could just learn the moves from a video but that is a very small part of shaolin.

If you want to learn how to fight using kungfu you should take wing chun, xingyi or southern mantis. Shaolin is more for spiritual cultivation and increased circulation, flexability and total overall athleticism.

my 2 cents

[xing_jian108]

The movements are exaggerated martial techniques. And take mostly the fancy impressive moves from tradition. And also add a lot of things to it. But it is originally from traditional martial arts. So the moves are useful. Except for the flips and crazy stuff. It may help agility but it will never be used in a fight. The forms however can be traditionalized. I knew a Gong Fu grandmaster (talked about in the Shaolin Gong Fu section: several things on gong fu) who took modern Wu Shu forms and put more stances and techniques in where the running and flowery arms are. You can tell it's the same form but it feels very tradition. Even though it started as a modern Wu Shu form made of traditional martial arts. It was traditionalized and taken back to being useful. So it can and has been done.

A mi tuo Fo
-Xing Jian

[shaolin_animal]

I understand where you are coming from. I started some wing chun, and learned the first form. (Alas, also a book.) I understand that shaolin is not all forms and fighting techniques. I try to work for a minimum of an hour everyday, usually about 1.5 hours. In addition to running through each form 5 times, and picking 1 to do 25 times, I do stance training, stretching, and some internal strength excercises. The one fight I was in since I started, I was stunned, the other person was untrained, but I was suprised that I was able to handle it realtivly easily, although I did really like sprain my thumb or something grabbing them at one point. I don't what I have done has gone completly to waste, partly because of this incident, and also because I feel healthier, one indication of that is that I used to get migraines really bad about once a month. I usually threw up three or four time before they went away, and about 4 months ago, they stopped and I haven't gotten so much as a headache since. Just because of the migraines I will continue to to what I have been doing, even if it is completly ineffective for combat, because it is so nice to be free of those god awful days. Anyway, I did learn tai chi from a person who taught me some for free, and I beleive that it has helped some with the shaolin. Anyway, could indicate to me what you think is important beyond forms, normal strength training, internal force training, stance training, meditation, and forms?

[shaolin_animal]

Thank you, xing_jian108, you give me hope that there is room for progress in my training!

[Maestro]

"Anyway, could indicate to me what you think is important beyond forms, normal strength training, internal force training, stance training, meditation, and forms?"

theres alot more then you think, beyond the external movements of forms for example, if you lack the ability to move the energy properly you will have achieved nothing but "flowery fists and embroidered kicks" you could always muscle the techniques, but that proves nothing

as for strength training, really..you wont see alot of that in TCMA because, in TCMA you spend alot of time linking the body, so you hit from the ground up basically, the dan tian being the main source of power, you learn how to use that over time, but strength training really isnt neccesary if you start to train gong fu, youll no what i mean, in a way the softer you are, the better, because it makes you faster and you wont rely on your muscles for speed or power, moreso, they just provide good armoring

internal force i have no real knowledge of beyond my studies so i wont say much besides you probably shouldnt train this way without a master or instructor to guide you

stance training is great, if you know what your doing, if your gonna try and pull an old school si ping ma for an hour without knowing why or what will come of it, you might aswell just not do it

meditation is something i believe you need guidance for, although simply being mindful of your surroundings and whatnot is beneficial..

amitabha

[emre]

You can not learn Shaolin from a book.

Shaolin techniques as seen in the forms aren't really techniques in the sense that "if your opponent does this, then you do this...". Instead, they are methods of applying power (jin) in different ways.

One particular technique in a form from a particular style might be an exercise in applying shaking jin sideways while moving downwards for example. Then, you can use this for a throwing technique, for chin na, or for a strike.

Another technique may be a method of applying hard jin in multiple directions at the same time, which can be used to split an opponents arms for a strike, or tie them together for a throw, or for two simultaneous strikes.

The thing is, you need someone who has mastered the art to show you these methods and explain the principles behind them, because they all have subtle nuances and differences. Xingyi applies power differently than Taiji, which applies power differently than Bagua even though all are internal arts. Northen Shaolin is different from Southern Shaolin.

If you learn just the forms, that's all you learn, dance moves basically. The techniques aren't applied exactly like they look in the forms, unlike what people like Wong Kiew Kit would have you believe. You don't need to do a beak with your back hand if you're using Single Whip in Taiji as a rising palm strike for example, like he has pictures of his students doing.

[shaolin_animal]

Maestro, I read somewhere in the past that you live in CT, where, or how do you learn? I was told by the person who taught me some tai chi that internal energy could be moved partly by visulization. I don't know if it's true or not. I read in Yang Jwing Ming's book on Shaolin Chin Na that we should stab our fingers into chinese green beans. I have read in other places that this is internal energy training.
Emre, I beleive you are probably right about learning everything from a book, but I had hoped that my past experiance (especially tai chi) would help me. I have read on Wong Kiew Kit's website (I can't figure out if he should be trusted or no) that he learned tai chi from a book, and that he was able to do so beacuse of his shaolin training. If this is true, I had hoped it might work the same for me, my past experiance would benefit my book learning of shaolin.

[xing_jian108]

Books or videos are no place to start. But if you already have knowledge of the martial art it is explaining, no problem. If it was so bad and only going to give out bad information and hurt you, why would these masters make them? Just for money? Well what about the Shao Lin Monks who make videos? They only do it for money as well? Most of the Shao Lin videos don't give applications. And most of them are more advanced forms. I think that shows that they are intended for people who have some knowledge of Shao Lin already. And that way videos are no problem. Same with books. Though videos are better because you can see it done. But books go in better detail about how to do it and all the details you would miss from watching a video. Especially if it's in a language you don't understand. Anyway, what I'm saying is simply, if you are a beginner, books and videos are good for reference but not for learning. But once you have some knowledge of the style already, books and videos are no problem because you would have a good understanding of what is being taught there.

A mi tuo Fo
-Xing Jian

[doc]

I knew a Gong Fu grandmaster (talked about in the Shaolin Gong Fu section: several things on gong fu) who took modern Wu Shu forms and put more stances and techniques in where the running and flowery arms are. You can tell it's the same form but it feels very tradition.

Just curious, this grandmaster, is he from Shaolin?

I've never met a monk from Shaolin who converted modern wushu back TO traditional.

Since, most wushu, is converted FROM traditional movements, stances, and forms.

[Maestro]

"Maestro, I read somewhere in the past that you live in CT, where, or how do you learn?"

i live in southeastern ct, atm my sifu is away, but usually i train hung ga

amitabha