Is this guy on the level?

[Greenknight2]

I bought an issue of Inside Kung Fu- and there was an interesting interview with Peter Ragnar's magnetic qi-qong, is this guy on the level? Using magnets to improve qi?

[zachsan]

nope.

[doc]

magnetic qi gong. now there's a topic...

[daodejing]

Maybe. It's a well docomented phenomenon. Doing standing form qigong on a pair of powerful (3000 gauss or so) magnets can speed up your training and increase the energy flow.

Magnets generate an electromagnetic field which will then influence the emf of the human body.

Some acupuncturists will apply small round magnets to acupoints on the ear with an adhesive so they can leave them on the patient all day, thus continuing the treatment outside the office.

There are some drawbacks to using things like magnets to speed up your development in qigong. The major one is that yes, it can make the qi flow more powerful, but it can become a crutch as well. If you practice with magnets and get great results, that's fine, but if you can't generate a powerful flow of qi without magnets then you need to start training without them.

Aids are great at the begining, but a competent qigong practitioner should be able to cultivate, generate, and project qi under any circumstances, and without the use of aids.

So no, the guy isn't a total quack.

[mortal]

"So no, the guy isn't a total quack."

He IS a total quack.

[zachsan]

lol, thank you mortal.

Originally posted by daodejing
Maybe. It's a well docomented phenomenon. Doing standing form qigong on a pair of powerful (3000 gauss or so) magnets can speed up your training and increase the energy flow.

DDJ, sometimes i wonder what "well documented" means to you, besides "oft repeated".

Magnets generate an electromagnetic field which will then influence the emf of the human body.

yep. which, in turn, has not been shown to have any relevant effect on the human body itself. then again, neither has qi energy, so if you're going to say that the human body's EMF has an effect on one's qi energy, there's really no way to refute that.

by the way, i can tell you beyond a shadow of a doubt that my quizamazoo increases the power of my pallaballoo, which is obviously why i can hold my liquor so well. what am i talking about? well, that's loosely defined.

greenknight, since you've read that article, if you want another perspective, visit http://www.skepdic.com/magnetic.html and/or http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0111/mbslerner.php .

[daodejing]

Peer-Reviewed Published
Clinical Studies
Biolectromagnetic, Society Journal, June 1999
This study investigated the ability of permanent magnets to inhibit the formation and development of joint degeneration in a small sample canine osteoarthritis model that progresses in a similar fashion to human arthritis.

Richard A. Rogachevsky, Marko Markov, Department of Orthopedics and Rehabilitation, University of Miami School of Medicine. -- Biolectromagnetic Society Meeting, June 1999

Journal of Back Musculoskeletal Rehabilitation, Vol. 13, 1999
This study was implemented among 25 female subjects with diagnosed fibromyalgia and reports scales on pain-relief and sleep patterns by resting on mattress pads with Tectonic brand magnets vs. sham mattress.

Agatha Colbert, Tufts University School of Medicine, Errol Baker, Boston University School of Medicine et al. - Journal of Back Musculoskeletal Rehabilitation - 2000 in Press.

Plastic and Reconstructive Surgery
The responses of 20 patients who underwent suction lipectomy and post-operative magnetic field therapy were evaluated in this study. Tectonic magnetic patches were placed over the operative region of 10 patients and shams were placed over the same approximate surgically operated region of 10 others.

Daniel Man, Boris Man, Harvey Plosker - Plastic and Reconstructive Surgery - December1999

Research papers from major universities and medical colleges have studied the effects of static magnets fields on pain associated with arthritis, post-polio syndrome and diabetic nerve damage.
Baylor College of Medicine, researchers found that magnets placed over pain trigger points resulted in pain relief in post-polio patients.
Tufts University School of Medicine study demonstrated that magnets helped relieve pain of fibromyalgia.
New York Medical College study showed that magnets helped treat foot pain in diabetics.
Emory University study, depressed patients seemed to improve when treated with a mild magnetic pulse.
Several news reports have disclosed that other researchers are testing magnets for sickle cell disease and carpal tunnel.
(Details are available upon request from Magnetherapy, Inc)

[daodejing]

There is some good research out there, I'm not saying the above studies are good research, they're just an example. I'm having trouble digging up abstracts and full text papers on efficacy of chinese medical treatment involving placement of magnets on the ear acupoints, but if I find anything I'll post it for you zach.

Honestly, I don't know the guy, and as such can't honestly attest to his level of quackery. But simple physics should be enough to prove to you that nearby electromagnetic fields do affect one another. The extent of the effect depends upon the strength of the field, and as far as I know, you're not going to get much results from doing qigong with magnets that are any less than 2000 gauss.

[Greenknight2]

Interesting, it said in the article the guy was a sixth degree blackbelt in ju-jutsu, so if that's true, he might be on the level. I don't know, perhaps I should give you an address of the article, so you can write to it, perhaps he's got some evidence you don't. I'm going to show it too the article to a alternative doctor (I refer to him as a witch doctor, he says those are the best kind)

[doc]

Usually when the TCM practitioners in China tape those "thingie's" to the ears, they are continuing pressure on the various pressure points in the ear. I have not seen them use magnets, though I don't disagree that they could (the use of magnets in medicine is becoming more popular; got a personal story about that, lol). The TCM doc's usually use a form of dried out herbal medicine under the tape, or, a small pebble. The medicinal herbal pellet seems to be most commonly used.

Magnets do have a physiologic effect on the body. Don't discount it. As for it's moving or manipulating qi, well, I leave that discussion to the experts.

[zachsan]

Originally posted by daodejing
Peer-Reviewed Published
Clinical Studies
Biolectromagnetic, Society Journal, June 1999
This study investigated the ability of permanent magnets to inhibit the formation and development of joint degeneration in a small sample canine osteoarthritis model that progresses in a similar fashion to human arthritis.

Richard A. Rogachevsky, Marko Markov, Department of Orthopedics and Rehabilitation, University of Miami School of Medicine. -- Biolectromagnetic Society Meeting, June 1999

Journal of Back Musculoskeletal Rehabilitation, Vol. 13, 1999
This study was implemented among 25 female subjects with diagnosed fibromyalgia and reports scales on pain-relief and sleep patterns by resting on mattress pads with Tectonic brand magnets vs. sham mattress.

Agatha Colbert, Tufts University School of Medicine, Errol Baker, Boston University School of Medicine et al. - Journal of Back Musculoskeletal Rehabilitation - 2000 in Press.

Plastic and Reconstructive Surgery
The responses of 20 patients who underwent suction lipectomy and post-operative magnetic field therapy were evaluated in this study. Tectonic magnetic patches were placed over the operative region of 10 patients and shams were placed over the same approximate surgically operated region of 10 others.

Daniel Man, Boris Man, Harvey Plosker - Plastic and Reconstructive Surgery - December1999

Research papers from major universities and medical colleges have studied the effects of static magnets fields on pain associated with arthritis, post-polio syndrome and diabetic nerve damage.

this is all very good. i never said it shouldn't be studied. it'd be interesting to see, however, what these studies found.

Baylor College of Medicine, researchers found that magnets placed over pain trigger points resulted in pain relief in post-polio patients.

this i have heard of before, and it needs to be reproduced. correct me if i'm wrong but so far it hasn't been.

Tufts University School of Medicine study demonstrated that magnets helped relieve pain of fibromyalgia.
New York Medical College study showed that magnets helped treat foot pain in diabetics.
Emory University study, depressed patients seemed to improve when treated with a mild magnetic pulse.
Several news reports have disclosed that other researchers are testing magnets for sickle cell disease and carpal tunnel.
(Details are available upon request from Magnetherapy, Inc)

haven't heard of those. i'll read up about them after i'm over my hangover (my pallaballoo seems to be failing me this morning)...

[zachsan]

ok, this was fun.

Originally posted by daodejing
Tufts University School of Medicine study demonstrated that magnets helped relieve pain of fibromyalgia.

this was the most convincing of the three. to quote the principal man who conducted the experiment, "The results tell us maybe this therapy works, and that maybe more research is justified. You can't draw final conclusions from only one study." the results were statistically significant, but only by less than ten percent in every area examined (unless i'm reading the results wrong, which is possible). and it was only 25 people - again, it needs to be reproduced with a larger test group.

there's no shortage of experiments to raise eyebrows on the issue, but there's also no shortage of experiments that come up with nothing at all. that's why these isolated experiments need to be reproduced convincingly.

New York Medical College study showed that magnets helped treat foot pain in diabetics.

i'm amazed that people were even taking this one seriously, unless i'm missing something big. they would put a sham magnet on one foot of each patient, and a real one on the other foot... OF EVERY SINGLE PATIENT. but that's not all... then, halfway through, they switch feet!! and surprise, surprise, they show improvement! where's the control group? and why would you switch feet if you wanted to eliminate variables in the experiment? that's easy, because it wasn't an experiment.

Emory University study, depressed patients seemed to improve when treated with a mild magnetic pulse.

actually, when i said the first was the most convincing of the three, i really meant the most convincing of the two, because this one is really about something else entirely, that is, high-powered electromagnets applied to certain parts of the brain. electromagnets like these have been shown to have good effects 20 years ago. but trying to pretend that this has really anything to do with little magnets on your ears or your wrist is at best misleading. which, by the way, is exactly what is done by the numerous magno-therapy product websites i've come across this morning, which list this study as something which should lend credibilty to their product. the best part is, at least one of those sites has a disclaimer at the end that says that these studies don't lend credibility to magnet therapy products by other brands!

i'm inclined to agree.

[daodejing]

Doc, the most commonly applied object (in the us) taped to the ear by TCM doctors is vaccaria seeds. They usually use vaccaria seeds for pain releif, and small gold balls for tonification. Only a few people whip out the ear magnets, and they're usually used for pain releif as well.

Sometimes people will get crazy and put a little teapill ball on the ear.

[mortal]

"Interesting, it said in the article the guy was a sixth degree blackbelt in ju-jutsu, so if that's true, he might be on the level."


lolololololololo I love it!

[zachsan]

i read an unrelated article about the guy. apparently he's The Miracle Man. he's got a huge red beard and miracles just happen around him for no reason. the author of the article goes on ecstatically about an amazing occurrence in which he was sitting at the table with this guy, and a glass of wine fell over, seemingly of its own accord.

it was obviously evidence of some kind of amazing psychokinetic energy emanating from the guy, and the author stared in shock, while the guy's wife playfully chided him for having used his mental energy to knock over the glass.

the author went on to equate him with jesus and buddha.

people are idiots.