carbs and drowsiness:(Postprandial fatigue, glucose metabolism/regulation)

[blooming tianshi lotus]

I just read a thread on another forum ( that with help from our local friendly troll crew , I just got a 5 day sin bin from btw ) and over there they're talking the ill effects of sugars and simple carbs. I was a little bit curious about that so I gooled on it and found this www.acu-cell.com/gi.html site and thought it was really interesting all round.

Firstly, according to these folks, complex carbs would you believe reduce the bioavailabilty of your calcium and iron and zinc etc. For the boys who are struggling to get away their sets of 50 pushups 9 or 100 or 300 or what ever it may be , but lift truck loads then gape at the reps my tight little fml body pumps through without raising a sweat ( as meglomaniacal as that sounds ) , if you understand the role calcium plays in this action, like I said, it is not the most sound plan to make the bulk of your carbs complex. !!!! I guess that sheds a new take on the bmi thing really aswell. Yell at me or rant, rally a riot and prevoke my evil side if you must ( as usually happens when someone confronts their ego ) , but this is information and I'm posting it !

Moving on though, on the sleepiness ( which I never really understood before from my own personalbody experience), as it turns out, this whole tiredness thing is a direct consequence of dehydration caused by sugar overload which leads to potassium / salt and electrolyte unbalance which then leads to lowered blood pressure on the " come down " from your sugar rush and makes you want to sleep. I guess, having been potassium deficient while training with the army several yrs ago, I am really acutely aware of both electrolytes and fuild intake and because of the high protein intake I do ( containing mass amounts of potassium etc ) it would explain why I never experience the sleepiness like so many are recently saying they are seeming to.

Just thought it was an interesting thing to shar, so hope it helps.

Blooming Tianshi


Btw : seen my Doc $$$ tally recently !!!!!!! .......lol............ I'm virtually loaded............ now, if I could just figure out how to bring a few them into the real world

[LeiYunFat]

That would explain why me eating 5 sugar cookies at lunch would make me sleep through the next period.

But also, half the time, BL, I don't know what the hell you are saying.

[doc]

Well, I don't always follow her either. But, that's ok.

Moving on though, on the sleepiness ( which I never really understood before from my own personalbody experience), as it turns out, this whole tiredness thing is a direct consequence of dehydration caused by sugar overload which leads to potassium / salt and electrolyte unbalance which then leads to lowered blood pressure on the " come down " from your sugar rush and makes you want to sleep.

Well, I think you need to tell your forum buddies to stop reading Gatorade sponsored web sites. Postprandial fatigue is a complex issue, but it does not arise because of lowered blood pressure due to electrolyte imbalance and dehydration. Your body does not dehydrate within an hour of eating, in fact, you should have more than adequate hydration, because of the food stuffs and liquids that you take in. And it takes some time, and a lot of factors, to start altering electrolyte levels in the blood.

Let's have a quick refresher on glucose metabolism and regulation before we continue.

If for no other reason, it is because of the demands of the brain for oxidizable glucose that the human body exquisitely regulates the level of glucose circulating in the blood. This level is maintained in the range of 5mM.
Nearly all carbohydrates ingested in the diet are converted to glucose following transport to the liver. Catabolism of dietary or cellular proteins generates carbon atoms that can be utilized for glucose synthesis via gluconeogenesis. Additionally, other tissues besides the liver that incompletely oxidize glucose (predominantly skeletal muscle and erythrocytes) provide lactate that can be converted to glucose via gluconeogenesis.

Maintenance of blood glucose homeostasis is of paramount importance to the survival of the human organism. The predominant tissue responding to signals that indicate reduced or elevated blood glucose levels is the liver. Indeed, one of the most important functions of the liver is to produce glucose for the circulation. Both elevated and reduced levels of blood glucose trigger hormonal responses to initiate pathways designed to restore glucose homeostasis. Low blood glucose triggers release of glucagon from pancreatic a-cells. High blood glucose triggers release of insulin from pancreatic b-cells. Additional signals, ACTH and growth hormone, released from the pituitary act to increase blood glucose by inhibiting uptake by extrahepatic tissues. Glucocorticoids also act to increase blood glucose levels by inhibiting glucose uptake. Cortisol, the major glucocorticoid released from the adrenal cortex, is secreted in response to the increase in circulating ACTH. The adrenal medullary hormone, epinephrine, stimulates production of glucose by activating glycogenolysis in response to stressful stimuli.

Glucagon binding to its' receptors on the surface of liver cells triggers an increase in cAMP production leading to an increased rate of glycogenolysis by activating glycogen phosphorylase via the PKA-mediated cascade. This is the same response hepatocytes have to epinephrine release. The resultant increased levels of G6P in hepatocytes is hydrolyzed to free glucose, by glucose-6-phosphatase, which then diffuses to the blood. The glucose enters extrahepatic cells where it is re-phosphorylated by hexokinase. Since muscle and brain cells lack glucose-6-phosphatase, the glucose-6-phosphate product of hexokinase is retained and oxidized by these tissues.

In opposition to the cellular responses to glucagon (and epinephrine on hepatocytes), insulin stimulates extrahepatic uptake of glucose from the blood and inhibits glycogenolysis in extrahepatic cells and conversely stimulates glycogen synthesis. As the glucose enters hepatocytes it binds to and inhibits glycogen phosphorylase activity. The binding of free glucose stimulates the de-phosphorylation of phosphorylase thereby, inactivating it. Why is it that the glucose that enters hepatocytes is not immediately phosphorylated and oxidized? Liver cells contain an isoform of hexokinase called glucokinase. Glucokinase has a much lower affinity for glucose than does hexokinase. Therefore, it is not fully active at the physiological ranges of blood glucose. Additionally, glucokinase is not inhibited by its product G6P, whereas, hexokinase is inhibited by G6P.

One major response of non-hepatic tissues to insulin is the recruitment, to the cell surface, of glucose transporter complexes. Glucose transporters comprise a family of five members, GLUT-1 to GLUT-5. GLUT-1 is ubiquitously distributed in various tissues. GLUT-2 is found primarily in intestine, kidney and liver. GLUT-3 is also found in the intestine and GLUT-5 in the brain and testis. GLUT-5 is also the major glucose transporter present in the membrane of the endoplasmic reticulum (ER) and serves the function of transporting glucose to the cytosol following its' dephosphorylation by the ER enzyme glucose 6-phosphatase. Insulin-sensitive tissues such as skeletal muscle and adipose tissue contain GLUT-4. When the concentration of blood glucose increases in response to food intake, pancreatic GLUT-2 molecules mediate an increase in glucose uptake which leads to increased insulin secretion. Recent evidence has shown that the cell surface receptor for the human T cell leukemia virus (HTLV) is the ubiquitous GLUT-1.

Hepatocytes, unlike most other cells, are freely permeable to glucose and are, therefore, essentially unaffected by the action of insulin at the level of increased glucose uptake. When blood glucose levels are low the liver does not compete with other tissues for glucose since the extrahepatic uptake of glucose is stimulated in response to insulin. Conversely, when blood glucose levels are high extrahepatic needs are satisfied and the liver takes up glucose for conversion into glycogen for future needs. Under conditions of high blood glucose, liver glucose levels will be high and the activity of glucokinase will be elevated. The G6P produced by glucokinase is rapidly converted to G1P by phosphoglucomutase, where it can then be incorporated into glycogen.

If you don't understand something here, let me know and I'll explain it to you.

After you eat, insulin and cholecystokinin, among many other agents, are running around the bloodstream. One of the effects of eating, is a temporary rise in blood glucose levels, followed by, quite interestingly, a fall, because of insulin secretion and eventual reuptake of glucose from the bloodstream into the cells. It is thought that this change in blood sugar, both up, and down, and, the actual high or low level, contributes to fatigue sensation. You find this especially in diabetics, who demonstrate a pronounced version of this, because of their inherent difficulties with glucose regulation.

However, it has been found that postprandial fatigue can be caused by other hormones, in this case, cholesystokinin, which is released by fatty meals.

Influences of fat and carbohydrate on postprandial sleepiness, mood, and hormones.

Wells AS, Read NW, Uvnas-Moberg K, Alster P.

Centre for Human Nutrition, University of Sheffield, England.

Paired studies were conducted in 18 healthy volunteers (9 men, 9 women) to investigate whether differences in mood and daytime sleepiness induced by high-fat-low-carbohydrate (CHO) and low-fat-high-CHO morning meals were associated with specific hormonal responses. Plasma insulin concentrations were significantly higher after low-fat-high-CHO meals, and cholecystokinin (CCK) concentrations were significantly higher after high-fat-low-CHO meals. Subjects tended to feel more sleepy and less awake 2-3 h after the high-fat-low-CHO meal, and ratings of fatigue were significantly greater 3 h after the high-fat-low-CHO meal than after the low-fat-high-CHO meal. The results of the present study are consistent with the hypothesis that there is an association between the lassitude experienced after a meal and the release of CCK.

Other chemicals in the bloodstream can trigger the sensation of somnolence. Tyrosine, which is found in turkey and many cheeses, produces a rather pleasant somnolence, which is why fatigue after Thanksgiving dinners is commonplace. Also, you have neurochemical factors; after eating, the parasympathetic nervous system gears up, and because of increased vagal nerve activity, you can have a stimulation in a certain part of the brainstem, that helps trigger somnolence. The center for "wakefulness", resides deep in the stem of the brain, right above the spinal cord, nearby where many of the cranial nerves, including the vagus, live.

Changes in blood pressure can also trigger the sensation of fatigue. Increased parasympathetic nervous system activity can cause more blood to pool in the gut, and away from the central circulation. A decrease in blood pressure, and a diminishing of central circulation, is thought by some to trigger the sensation of fatigue in the brain.

Some people even believe that there is a psychological effect, of restfulness and "fatigue" which can arise after satiety. From a primitive standpoint, resting after the kill and feed, is just a matter of balance. Interesting concept.

So there are MANY mechanisms behind postprandial fatigue; we've touched on just a few.

[zachsan]

also, get enough sleep.

[daodejing]

The postprandial fatigue is just a manifestation of spleen qi deficiency. Biochemistry be damned........

[blooming tianshi lotus]

Well, I don't always follow her either. But, that's ok.

hmmmmmm.....


If you don't understand something here, let me know and I'll explain it to you.

Okay but there are a few points here that are seperate and need to be addressed individually.


1. Postprandial fatigue is a complex issue, but it does not arise because of lowered blood pressure due to electrolyte imbalance and dehydration.

I can appreciate there should be another way to dangerously lower your blood pressure in postprandial fatigue, so please continue. Btw : http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/000982.htm

http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&q=+sugar+withdrawal+and++dehydration& meta=

http://www.diagnose-me.com/cond/C154575.html

and I think that with that last url, and relating the low blood pressure to insighting dehydration ( given that postprandial fatigue causes lowered BP ) I think it's sound. If you want to explain why this is not true, by all means , enlighten me



Your body does not dehydrate within an hour of eating, in fact, you should have more than adequate hydration, because of the food stuffs and liquids that you take in. And it takes some time, and a lot of factors, to start altering electrolyte levels in the blood.



Let's have a quick refresher on glucose metabolism and regulation before we continue.







After you eat, insulin and cholecystokinin, among many other agents, are running around the bloodstream. One of the effects of eating, is a temporary rise in blood glucose levels, followed by, quite interestingly, a fall, because of insulin secretion and eventual reuptake of glucose from the bloodstream into the cells. It is thought that this change in blood sugar, both up, and down, and, the actual high or low level, contributes to fatigue sensation. You find this especially in diabetics, who demonstrate a pronounced version of this, because of their inherent difficulties with glucose regulation.

However, it has been found that postprandial fatigue can be caused by other hormones, in this case, cholesystokinin, which is released by fatty meals.



Other chemicals in the bloodstream can trigger the sensation of somnolence. Tyrosine, which is found in turkey and many cheeses, produces a rather pleasant somnolence, which is why fatigue after Thanksgiving dinners is commonplace. Also, you have neurochemical factors; after eating, the parasympathetic nervous system gears up, and because of increased vagal nerve activity, you can have a stimulation in a certain part of the brainstem, that helps trigger somnolence. The center for "wakefulness", resides deep in the stem of the brain, right above the spinal cord, nearby where many of the cranial nerves, including the vagus, live.

Changes in blood pressure can also trigger the sensation of fatigue. Increased parasympathetic nervous system activity can cause more blood to pool in the gut, and away from the central circulation. A decrease in blood pressure, and a diminishing of central circulation, is thought by some to trigger the sensation of fatigue in the brain.

Some people even believe that there is a psychological effect, of restfulness and "fatigue" which can arise after satiety. From a primitive standpoint, resting after the kill and feed, is just a matter of balance. Interesting concept.

So there are MANY mechanisms behind postprandial fatigue; we've touched on just a few.

Tis alot of information to wade through and search to present my contentions , so for now if you can answer that first one and no doubt I'll get back to you on the rest soon

BL

[blooming tianshi lotus]

The postprandial fatigue is just a manifestation of spleen qi deficiency......

translation : enough of the right sugar at the right time

[zachsan]

The postprandial fatigue is just a manifestation of spleen qi deficiency. Biochemistry be damned........

this is why you're my favorite spirit guide.

[doc]

Most physicians in the English-speaking world consider hypotension - low blood pressure - to be a symptom of some other disorder. In other parts of the world, however, hypotension is itself considered to be a disorder that can cause various symptoms, including depression, lethargy and fatigue. This different attitude is probably the result of different methods of medical training.

Well, if it's on "diagnose-me.com", it must be true.

I'm leaning more toward the speen qi deficiency. Dao is right. Enough of this medical science shit.

[daodejing]

Amen. Fatigue means deficiency. If you're tired, its because you are obviously lacking in something, be it qi, blood, yin, or yang.

Fatigue after heavy exertion is normal, you exhausted your qi working out. Fatigue after mild to moderate exertion is less normal, obviously you didn't have enough qi to begin with.

Eating is excercise for the spleen and stomach, and the spleen being the zang organ in charge of digestion, if the exertion of eating is making you tired then your spleen must be weak. It's that simple folks. Added to that, improper diet (including excess consumption of dampening foods, like dairy, saturated fat, anything fried or sugary, alcohol) will make the spleen qi deficiency worse.

Therefore, BL is correct (if misinformed) when she links this back to improper diet and pathological metabolism of carbohydrates. Its much simpler than biochemistry.

And by the way, in case anyone is wondering, the chinese "spleen" includes the western "pancreas". Some silly nitwit british fellow mistranslated the character "pi" 100 years back and now we all get to live with the confusing standard translation.

[LeiYunFat]

Hey, don't go attacking BL for being Zach's favorite spirit-guide! You should know that jealousy is also bad for stress, which affects biochemistry.

[blooming tianshi lotus]

Postprandial fatigue is a complex issue, ...................


Let's have a quick refresher on glucose metabolism and regulation before we continue.



After you eat, insulin and cholecystokinin ( definition : cho·le·cys·to·ki·nin (kō'lĭ-sĭs'tə-kī'nĭn) http://www.answers.com/main/content/img/pron.gif
n. (Abbr. CCK)
A hormone produced principally by the small intestine in response to the presence of fats, causing contraction of the gallbladder, release of bile, and secretion of pancreatic dicho·le·cys·to·ki·nin (kō'lĭ-sĭs'tə-kī'nĭn) http://www.answers.com/main/content/img/pron.gif
n. (Abbr. CCK) . It is thought that this change in blood sugar, both up, and down, and, the actual high or low level, contributes to fatigue sensation.


So there are MANY mechanisms behind postprandial fatigue; we've touched on just a few.

Well thank you Daodejing . Comming back to pure western physiology for a moment, when you understand the spleen / blood connection and that the article extracts Rich gave us back there were talking about blood glucose vs muscle / tissue glycose , it comes back to the same fact that diet is still what we're talking about and in regards to the spleen, the thing is about sugar intake , quality, blood ph and viscosity it causes and heat being a factor of that. I don't know what made you want to assert your rightness just to be right , but I don't care. Have it .

Anyway, back to the article, On cholesystokinin , read below and pls see food combo thread .
I did actually spend 2 1/2 hrs of what should have been well earnt sleep time yesterday reading and researching / cross referencing other relevant information. Mainly because if I'm missing something I'd rather know what it is or at min where the gap in my logic lays.

Firstly, lets do some terminology clarification.

Genesis : creation / manifestation

glyco : intra tissue / cellular sugar ( carb) stores

Gluco : blood sugar

Hepatic : of the liver

extra : outside of

intra : internal

inter : between two individual units

ubiquitous : present everywhere simultaneously

insulin : hormone that regulates blood glucose

plasma : fluid part of blood / lymph/insulin suspended in fat globual

cyte : mature cell ( when talking lymphocytes , these are found in blood floater sacks ( nodes ) and contain excess toxins etc that are the cause of high blood count and indicative of disease )

node : a sack containing clusters of cytes

catabolism : Degradation of chemical compounds into compounds having a lower molecular weight by enzymatic processes in living organisms

meatbolism : Metabolism is the sum of all the chemical and physical changes that take place within the body and enable its continued growth and functioning. Metabolism involves the breakdown of complex organic constituents of the body with the liberation of energy, which is required for other processes, and the building up of complex substances, which form the material of the tissues and organs.



Okay, so I think that'll do us for now. Doc uses more words ( and much bigger btw :P ) up to the second box quote, I got. Stop me if I loose anyone here, but if we're talking glut 1 and higher potential for viral receipt as a consequence of the high simple carb intake as opposed to more complex carbs, and we bare in mind that ( according to paragraph one of that same box ) protein catabolism can = glucose ( needed for brain function ) synthesis ) production ( glucose spike being good / high glycolic ( glycogen being neccessary if not in too high proportions to the other cells ) for organ function ) spike being dangerous ( because it leads the liver to store too much sugar , depriving extrahepatic cells of the sugar they themselves need to function ) , then it becomes extremely clear why it is a sensible thing to nourish this way.

[blooming tianshi lotus]

To further boost the immune system and increase production of growth hormones ( which protect and repair the body and particularly post work out ) , it becomes handy to know that those lymphocytes ( mature cells in the lymph nodes ) can be metabolised via the ph of the pancreatic production influenced again by red wine and lemon juice and heat in conjuntion with protein in it's most catabolised form ( and yes there is data available somewhere on this but now we're talking serious medicine so pls don't ask me to find it nor post because that could be extremely unlikely to happen. There are some great med journals and on-line rescources available and if I get into my father's library I might even be able to give you some titles...... it's a big ask though so just don't hold your breath ) .

On the potassium though, being we know how it pumps bloods to be filtered into / through the liver and spleen ( which keeps them working ) to be filtered , liver being to produce bile ( at ph pending dietary influence ) to metabolise protein , carbs and fats which then detoxify and replensh the body , and the spleen which produce cells related to immune response ( again pending ph and compostion of blood passing through it ) , you will also see that when ph is made higher ( through aide of lemon juice / heat / and red wine or extremely high proof alcohol but only in a shot a 2 ) (and allowed to cool and regulate at intervals throughout the day to allow the sugar etc to build in desity to fortify ) , it ubiquitously metabolises interplasmic fat ( inluding from the lymphocytes dictating / indicating immune function and personal toxicity etc) which ( ??) frees the interglobual insulin also reducing risk of GLUT 1 > HTLV reception . .......... is the theory....
If this isn't clear or if someone finds a fault in this, please do let me know ( like you'd pass that opportunity up ) . Personal baby of mine up there so enjoy or correct to your hearts content.

[blooming tianshi lotus]

Oh and on energy enough for workout pre and in recovery, did you also know that proteins ( normally taking 8 - 10 hrs to meatabolise ) metabolised and catabolised like this , break down into immediate and usable energy. And I also read some pieces from health and bio-med professors who say they never to rarely give the gen public the standards and advice ( particularly with bmis and bf % recs and dietary compostions etc ) they use on their own bodies because ppl are well used to their misinformations and likely to stick to it more tightly if the bar is just slightly lower. Lol ha

On the soda water I've also been recommending we all drink, [{quote }] The pancreas and bile duct (biliary) systems together form an important ...
Bicarbonate is alkaline, and helps digestion by neutralizing the stomach ... [{quote }],
thought this might help your contentions

cheers and thx for wading through the post .

BL

[doc]

Good lord. Will someone send me to HELL to escape this? I could use a respite.

(Onesp1ng's love kitten. LOL, the underworld strikes again. You guys kill me. )