Tendons

[LeiYunFat]

Alright, so my dad has been having problems with his knees since I could remember, because he used to ball it up all the time. Well, lately, like for the past year and a half, he's been complaining of joint problems in his elbows as well. He uses this as his excuse to get out of working out, which I would bet good money on, is something he hates doing. My aunt who is a pharmacist listened to his symptoms in casual conversation and told us it was tendonitis, in casual conversation. Now, my pops does shit all the time that would put strain on his joints, but he never complains, only when he is working out. I can hear his joints strain so I know it's not really just him trying to get out of it, but he still goes about the world like it's nothing, unless he's around weights, resistance exercises, or exercise in general. Should I be a nazi about this and tell him to;

1.) stop doing all kinds of shit
and
2.) see a doctor, get some meds, quit trying to superman it and stfu

?

And what are some tendon-strengthening exercises can someone do? I'm not talking tendon-washing qigong, here. Even if I could learn it or knew it, I would never be able to teach him.

I always thought things like static high-horse stances would strengthen tendons, but I need some other input than just my experience. Plus, he's not one to listen to his son when it comes to showing his dad up in physical prowess.

The other day I was working out and my mom was commenting about how big I've gotten, my dad goes like "I used to be that big." Yeah right, man. I've seen your pictures, you never came close to this. Bff *flexes*

[onesp1ng]

I'm surely no medical professional...(for the mean time) but i'd say there're quite a few things that older individuals lack, and one of the most important ones has got to be a stretching routine. Many people completely forget to do this -- I mean really spend time doing it....as they become "aged." Perhaps a short stretching routine that he could do everyday would help, which you can add on to as improvements begin to show.

g

[arhat]

I eat them.

[Maestro]

why dont you start off by telling us what style of gung fu you practice. because first off if your a gung fu student and you dont know how to strengthen your tendons i really dont know what to say other then maybe get a better teacher.

the primary and secondary muscle groups are used little in the execution of shaolin gung fu techniques, aswell as wudang and other CMA styles. for one, they require to much oxygen to work efficiently and tendons require much less. not to mention the strength of your tendons is linked throughout your whole body which gives obvious benefits to a gung fu student.

most students dont know how to link the lower half of their body with the upper half, and im not talking about 6 harmonies, thats more along the lines of body mechanics and stance work.

i could suggest methods to strength the tendons in the legs and arms but i cant describe them over the internet. standing in a horse is good for tendon strength if you know how to do it. most who stand in a horse only know how to align the structure of the body and leave most of the burn on the quadracepts, this is good but this isnt the definitive method for mabu. neither is it beneficial for the tendons, or not nearly as beneficial as it should be if done correctly.

[zachsan]

tendons connect muscle to bone. they can't exert force of their own. if you're moving, or even standing or sitting up, you're using your primary and/or secondary muscle groups.

[plumflower_pm]

I eat them.

Tendons or Old people?

[Maestro]

"tendons connect muscle to bone. they can't exert force of their own. if you're moving, or even standing or sitting up, you're using your primary and/or secondary muscle groups."

well, thanks for that little bit of knowledge there, i guess i have alot to learn huh? lolo

this has nothing to do with power generation and combat techniques of CMA. the primary and secondary muscle groups are for the most part relaxed while executing shaolin combat techniques.

for example the saying in CMA "the fist should be like a rock attatched to a rope" is perfect description. the straight punch for example in shoalin relies on the rotation of the hip and the connection of power from the ground directed to the fist, this is only achieved if the body is relaxed, the spine straight, the shoulders relaxed(another saying in CMA "nothing can be achieved without a relaxed shoulder") the elbows sink, the fist tight, the arm loose. the only muscle involved in the execution of this technique is the triceps which are used primarily for extension, whereas the biceps are used primarily for retraction, which is why bigger biceps are detrimental to martial artists who seek speedy arm techniques.

your right, tendons do connect ligaments to bones, which is why use of tendons is paramout to shaolin technique. without the connection there is no reason for tendons to exist, because we would be dead.

the fact that we make use of the tendons for our delivery of power is because of this reason, this is also why when a shaolin practitioner executes a technique he should not be moved. for example, even if you use jian hand(picked a argueably very weak technique ok) in straight sword set and you thrust your finger upward or sideways or whatever, and someone grabs your arm and tries to move it left right up down etc, you should not be moved in the least. the connection of the body is manifest in all shaolin technique, and it is where our power delivery for every technique comes from. and this IS basic. most kung fu practitioners i have seen have no knowledge of this and yet they claim high level skills. when it is spparent simply by watching a practitioner if he has "it" or not.

[zachsan]

of course most of your muscles are relaxed during a well-executed technique, but this doesn't mean inactive. muscles move tendons, which move joints. it's impossible to skip the muscle part and try to somehow "use" the tendon by itself.

i'm not disagreeing just for the sake of disagreeing. going back to LYF's question, since you can't move tendons directly, what's the best way of strengthening them?

[Maestro]

"of course most of your muscles are relaxed during a well-executed technique, but this doesn't mean inactive. muscles move tendons, which move joints. it's impossible to skip the muscle part and try to somehow "use" the tendon by itself.

i'm not disagreeing just for the sake of disagreeing. going back to LYF's question, since you can't move tendons directly, what's the best way of strengthening them?"

the sinews of your body are interwoven therefore you cant move one without the other, i was never argueing this fact. like i said before;

"the primary and secondary muscle groups are used little in the execution of shaolin gung fu techniques"

i didnt say, all the sinews of our body are never used ever! like your alluding to. your making a mountain out a mole hill because you obviously dont understand what im talking about otherwise you wouldnt bother argueing whatever it is you think your trying to prove

"what's the best way of strengthening them?"

like i said, shaolin gung fu is the best way. if you understood shaolin gung fu better, you would know this. besides shaolin the only other i can think of would be taijijuan because of the qi that is manifest during slow practice with the right intent, but regardless, they are the same when it comes to use of tendons/sinews. and i dont just mean forms even though forms are very good for increasing strength and ROM of tendons, i said shaolin gung fu which incorporates all the principles of the body which shaolin patterns are founded on.

[LeiYunFat]

Whoa look at all these replies... let me take a crack at some stuff.

Onesp1ng, I am kind of avoiding the whole stretching thing because if his tendons are as bad as they've been made out to be, then stretching might cause tearing or unesscessary damage.

Maestro, I don't have a teacher. I've done a lot of things in martial arts here and there when I can but I've never been immersed in a lot of qigong. What I've learned is very basic. Even moreso, this is for my dad who has no martial arts experience, other than 1/4 of a tai chi form he never practices.

Arhat, I think the tendons and sinews are the best part of a steak. Mmmmm...but I try to stay away from old people, as they rarely provide a good texture and flavor. Plus, the cholesterol is through the roof. I think old people should just stay as a rich Frenchman's delicassy instead of trying to bring it to us.

Anyways like I said, my father probably wouldn't even do the horse stance, as it takes too much time/effort.

[daodejing]

Zach, the root of the misunderstanding, is that Vince is operating on the chinese definition of tendons, while you're talking about the american definition, which isn't quite the same.

LYF, two things. You convince your dad to start training taiji quan with the closest competent teacher, and you convince him to A: Spend lots of money on joint health supplements like condroitin, or B: start eating connective tissue with his meat. That means chewing up chicken and beef knuckles.

Didn't arhat mention that?

If your tendons are weak, eat tendons and start training soft.

[doc]

The ingestion of tendons and cartilage is an interesting concept, obviously well practiced in the east, and not at all in the west. Though lately, we have been adding chondroitin supplements to our diet in the west, to "treat" arthritis.

Interesting idea. I've always wondered why the Chinese eat the whole damn chicken, and now I wonder if the ingestion of the chicken's cartilaginous structures actually contributes helpful substances that may repair injured connective tissue and cartilage.

Excellent point.

As far as the knee goes, there are too many structures in and around it that might be causing issues here. You might want to read this thread: http://x.russbo.com/vb/showthread.php?t=368

[arhat]

yes, I was being a little funny but also serious.

The belief is immortalized in the story of Vajrapani, coming down to help out a weak monk and give him 'strength.' He dips his bowl and out spills tons of guts and sinews which the monk eats. It's one of those meat eating monk stories.

The God asks the monk, "Would You Attain Great Strength?"

Monk says, "Yes!"

Vajrapani says, "Then Can You Eat The Sinews-Flesh?"

Monk says, "NO!"

He winds up with a mouthful of guts and sinews anyway.

And of course in the story he becomes very powerful.

But anyway, yes eat lots of sinews and tendons, and the belief is it will strengthen and improve your own. I mean, besides training. He might also want to eat some spicy food, but Dao probably knows a little bit more about training and diet connection than me. But from what you say your dad is not much of a trainer. When we feed, we usually eat tons of hot pepper chillies and lots of vietnamese soup, pho bha, which I call gut soup. It's filled with tons of sinews and other shit. Lung I think. Or stomach. Which is weird, you put stomach or intestine into yours, you'd think you couldn't digest it. One thing I will not eat is any kind of tongue. I'd never french kiss an animal, you know. When I first began training I could not touch my toes. I have no idea if eating tendons has helped me but I have nothing to say it has not- now I can put my palms flat to the floor, legs straight. I feel as though my progress was definitely faster when I started eating the pho regularly- of course I was also training very regularly. Now I am probably about 5 or 6 inches from being able to kiss my toes. I got a big package so I have no interest in doing splits. But eating the tendon and sinews, that is a confirmed belief amongst the Chinese and also many monks.

Oh yeah, Chondroitin makes you fart. i mean room clearing flatulence. I think it's like, ground up seashell or something.

[arhat]

here ya go, from Dr. Shahar's piece for Gene:

The story presents Sengchou as a physically feeble monk constantly abused by his fellow monks. Shaolin's sturdy fighting monks beat him up all the time. In desperation, Sengchou turns to the monastery's patron deity for help. He enters the hall where the god Vajrapâni (Chinese: Jingang shen) is being worshipped, prostrates himself on the ground in front of his statue, and begs the deity to make him strong. After he clings to Vajrapâni's feet for six days and nights, the god responds to Sengchou's entreaties. Revealing his divine form to the devotee, and holding in his hands a bowl of meat, he bawls at him:

"Boy! Do you wish to become strong?"

"I do."

"Are you determined?"

"I am."

"Can you eat sinews-flesh?"

"I can not."

"Why?" inquired the deity.

"Monks are supposed to renounce meat."

In response, the god lifted his bowl, and with his knife proceeded to force the sinews-flesh upon Sengchou. At first the Dhyâna Master refused to accept, but when the god threatened him with his vajra club (jingang chu), he was so terrified that he did eat. In a short while he finished his meal, whereupon the god said to him: "Now, you are already extremely strong. However, you should fully uphold the [Buddhist] teachings, Beware!"

Since it was already daylight, Sengchou returned to his room. His fellow novices all interrogated him: "Scumbag! Where have you been just now?!" Chou did not answer. In a short while they all went to the hall for their common meal. After eating, they again entertained themselves with fighting. The Dhyana Master said: "I have strength now. I suspect not the same kind as yours." Then he flexed his arms, revealing his powerful sinews and bones. He looked practically like a god.

Before they recovered their senses, the Dhyana Master said, "I will give you a demonstration." Thereupon he entered the hall and started walking horizontally on the walls. He advanced first from the east, then from west, a total of several hundred feet. Then he leaped upwards, his head hitting the ceiling-beams several times. Finally he lifted several thousand pounds. His fighting was swift and powerful.

Those who had belittled him now prostrated themselves on the ground, their sweat trickling. No one dared face up to him.

[LeiYunFat]

Hm, I didn't realize eating it was so great for you. Good advice. And there is a chinese dish similar to the stuff in your pho, it's called "gno lam", you can have it in soups, noodles, etc. if you want but just by itself is fine too. It's basically the parts of meat closest to and including the tendons and sinews. Chicken kneecaps and ankles? I love em but I gotta get my dad to start eating them. Basically his meat intake has been reduced due to high cholesterol. Sinews and the like tend to hang around the fattier parts of the meat.

Pops can't eat that much hot stuff though, cause his acid reflux or something of that nature.

Thanks for all this info everyone.