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Shi De Cheng: wuseng, su jia di tz, real, fake....

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  • Shi De Cheng: wuseng, su jia di tz, real, fake....

    I received this email from a close and very knowlegeable friend, who has some deep insight and contacts into the present day world of Shaolin.

    Rich,

    I've been told from several reliable sources that Shi De Cheng is not a wuseng, but was a sujia dizi of Shi Su Yuan. Sujia dizi do get "monk names" even though they're not fully indoctrinated wuseng, you even got one right? Of course, with all the politics involving Shi Yong Xin, there are "wuseng" who Shi Yong Xin doesn't accept which leaves a grey area whether Shaolin and its rules spill outside of the current administration. Would anyone deny Shi Wan Heng whether he is a Shaolin monk? So therefore Xing Wei cannnot become a wuseng unless a true Shaolin wuseng accepts and declares him as one. Thoughts?
    My thoughts on Xing Wei have already been espoused: my opinion of him, is that his actions show him to be the farthest thing from what a Shaolin monk is expected to signifity. I won't waste any more time on him, as he is not worth it.

    As for Shi De Cheng, well, some interesting comments.
    Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

    "You're just a jaded cynical mother****er...." Jeffpeg

    (more comments in my User Profile)
    russbo.com



  • #2
    For those of you who do not know what a su jia di tz is, you can find a little doc diatribe in the Shaolin FAQ section of the site.

    This is actually an interesting commentary, on the current political situation in Shaolin.

    Of interest also, would be one of my journal entries, from the 1999 era... Just not sure where in the site that would be now (as the Journals section has evolved quite a bit over the years)
    Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

    "You're just a jaded cynical mother****er...." Jeffpeg

    (more comments in my User Profile)
    russbo.com


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    • #3
      "Su jia di zi means those people who either previously stayed at the temple as monks or never were monks but they had monk masters.."

      So.. its someone who used to be a monk or didn't used to be a monk.. glad thats cleared that up!

      In De Cheng's case he was a monk at the temple but no longer is (at the temple) which makes him now a su jia di tz? Which could basically apply to pretty much all the "real" shaolin monks teaching around the world these days?

      Is it an automatic thing when a monk leaves the temple for whatever reason or does the venerable abbot in his infinite wisdom decide arbitrarily who is no longer entitled to the "shaolin monk" title?

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      • #4
        a title is just words...for me currently shaolin is nothing but a profitable trademark...the proof is in the pudding<---I still don't get that...
        "What is barely legal?" - Ali G

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        • #5
          Anyone who has ever trained with Shi Decheng will know he is much more concerned about good, honest training than with image and bullshit master worship. You can see it in his kung fu, you can see it in the way he relates to his students...He's simply a joy to train under. Unfortunately, I think this stands in direct opposition with a lot of political junk at Shaolin...all face and no substance.
          -Jesse Pasleytm
          "How do I know? Because my sensei told me!"

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          • #6
            As to Xing Hong, well, search the site and the forum here. I think you'll find some interesting things.

            Been saying that a lot lately about these guys.
            Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

            "You're just a jaded cynical mother****er...." Jeffpeg

            (more comments in my User Profile)
            russbo.com


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            • #7
              a shaolin monk that's interested in his image? no, it's not possible.
              ZhongwenMovies.com

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              • #8
                Well, people change, and his is an interesting story. Especially the part about the PBS special we did, and his current, eh, movements.
                Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

                "You're just a jaded cynical mother****er...." Jeffpeg

                (more comments in my User Profile)
                russbo.com


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                • #9
                  can Doc or the blond boy elaborate some?
                  ZhongwenMovies.com

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                  • #10
                    Well, time for a new thread? And, how much shall we elaborate on? XH is a good guy, I've known him now for what, eight, nine years? Watched him evolve and mature, as I have some of these other guys.
                    Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

                    "You're just a jaded cynical mother****er...." Jeffpeg

                    (more comments in my User Profile)
                    russbo.com


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                    • #11
                      Well, not to get off of the Decheng topic, does this post mean anything to you?

                      Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

                      "You're just a jaded cynical mother****er...." Jeffpeg

                      (more comments in my User Profile)
                      russbo.com


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                      • #12
                        ahhh, the dish is served...
                        ZhongwenMovies.com

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                        • #13
                          hmm..god bless America ha.

                          On the DeCheng monkship though, do we haave a direct translation for Su jia di tz is ??

                          Considering what the term 'shaolin monk'is starting to look like these days, it's no wonder ppl are defining theese guys differently. .. I was kinda wondering actually...

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                          • #14
                            Sujia Dizi

                            "Sujia Dizi" translates into "layman disciple". There is another type of disciple called "chujia dizi" which is basically a monk-in-training. Chujia literally means to "leave from one's home or family" which is what monks do, they leave the regular world to devote their lives to prayer.

                            The problem with this Shaolin sujia dizi issue is there are so many Shaolin disciples out there, but very few authentic wuseng (martial or warrior monks). Many disciples claim that they are from Shaolin Temple and so people assume that they are monks. They claim the title wuseng even though they are not, and did not take the minimum of 10 vows to become a wuseng. This is understandable though, as if you are from the Shaolin Temple area, practiced Shaolin gongfu you're whole life, but are not a Shaolin monk, then what are you? A wannabe?

                            Even in China, the general notion is that if you study Shaolin gongfu, then you must be a monk from the Shaolin Temple. Any person who visits the Shaolin Temple in Henan, though, will realize that "Shaolin" is a bigger concept than just the temple itself. The temple is the symbolic nexus of Henan Province, which has developed many styles of gongfu. The temple feeds off the influence of the outside world and vice versa, as it harbored many criminals and generals over the years, who brought their real world martial arts experiences into the temple gates for experimentation and incorporation into the Shaolin curriculum.

                            Taking the vow of becoming a wuseng is a huge thing. Monks like Shi De Jian and De Yang take the "monk" title very seriously, and don't appreciate the younger generation who uses the title for their own gain, and once they get to where they want to go, pursue a "layman's" life while still holding on to the monk title.

                            In any case, the question whether Shi De Cheng is a recognized wuseng by the current administration perhaps is not important. Shaolin is a complex place, full of paradox and mystery. Most people would agree that he is one of the best traditional masters in the Shaolin area, and his actions and attitude are the embodiment of what a "Shaolin monk" should be. Like Bodhidharma preached, the internal is what matters, not the external. What is in a name or title is meaningless, only the heart represents truth.

                            Hanguo Laohu

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                            • #15
                              Well said. But, one thing about Decheng. He and Deyang are two of the few (Xinghong also) who have actually lived in the temple, before the monks and future performers were moved to the wushu guan.

                              It was pretty clear to me, when I visited Decheng's living quarters ten years ago, that he was living the same "monk" life that the rest of the monks were living in there. He was moved out of his home in the temple permanently when Yongxin ascended.
                              Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

                              "You're just a jaded cynical mother****er...." Jeffpeg

                              (more comments in my User Profile)
                              russbo.com


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