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  • In Yan Mings Defence...

    This is almost definately going to get me in trouble here as any objective opinion on virtually anything contraversial usually does, but here goes anyway.
    Afterreading about the experience of the student who had a seizure in class aand Mortals comment about the dislocated shoulder, I do feel it's important to interject a fresh perspective on it.

    Firstly, considering the drills and the suppposed competancy of senior students in the school, it probably is quite unneccessary alot of the time for obvious reasons that ShiYanMing actually be there physically. Doc says himself at his own school, he wouldn't neccessarily be there neither.. as you might not..

    As far as the rest goes, Imo, if a school's student waaas indeed vigilant and of any intention or capabillity as the head of the group at any time, that student iin their vigilance would no doubt seeing the risk potentials of being in charge of ppl, quite possibelylike to pursue some first aid certification aand if we're talking negligence, their oown responsibilities saccording to laws of workplace and health and safety and group management issues etc ....
    Yan Ming comes froma place where they have nevver had such things liike wph&s and other such things and at home, it was up to each individual and fellow students even to look out for one another..
    as opposed to the westerners at these schools who have been exposed to awareness and benifitof such standards their entire lives!!..who iis neglecting whom one might ask?

    ..Anyway, as far as the seizures, i think some water or soda water and juice and even flavoured milk or protein drink to sip on through out your workout would have prevented your situation... bringing fluids to classis your own
    responsibilty..
    A snr first aid officer orr even someone well trained in fitness instruction might have assisted the dislocated shoulder by taking a moment to pop the thing back in..


    Take heed and let it be a lesson... if you are responsibile for a group, it may serve you alll for you to make sure YOU can care for them. ..
    that's what teams do.. and further more, thAt is what leadership is made of.
    Welcome to your intro on being a warrior who will step up of his own accord...
    I understand why YanMing felt you had insulted temple... noww understand the lesson.

    Amitabah.

    Blooming Lotus

  • #2
    reposted for timelapse edit

    This is almost definately going to get me in trouble here as any objective opinion on virtually anything contraversial usually does, but here goes anyway.
    Afterreading about the experience of the student who had a seizure in class aand Mortals comment about the dislocated shoulder, I do feel it's important to interject a fresh perspective on it.

    Firstly, considering the drills and the suppposed competancy of senior students in the school, it probably is quite unneccessary alot of the time for obvious reasons that ShiYanMing actually be there physically. Doc says himself at his own school, he wouldn't neccessarily be there neither.. as you might not..

    As far as the rest goes, Imo, if a school's student waaas indeed vigilant and of any intention or capabillity as the head of the group at any time, that student iin their vigilance would no doubt seeing the risk potentials of being in charge of ppl, quite possibelylike to pursue some first aid certification aand if we're talking negligence, their oown responsibilities saccording to laws of workplace and health and safety and group management issues etc ....
    Yan Ming comes froma place where they have nevver had such things liike wph&s and other such things and at home, it was up to each individual and fellow students even to look out for one another..
    as opposed to the westerners at these schools who have been exposed to awareness and benifitof such standards their entire lives!!..who iis neglecting whom one might ask?

    ..Anyway, as far as the seizures, i think some water or soda water and juice and even flavoured milk or protein drink to sip on through out your workout would have prevented your situation... bringing fluids to class is your own
    responsibilty..
    A snr first aid officer orr even someone well trained in fitness instruction might have assisted the dislocated shoulder by taking a moment to pop the thing back in.. at old school shaolin, the lesson one was to learn was how nOt to sustain injury or alternatively how to work with injury thereby enforcing and supporting the strength of the entire team. It is the responsibiltyof EACH and every individual to do this. .. and also to learnto cope when others aare sick or injured or whatehaveyou. Remember .. this is Shaolin's Temple'!!..you are not there to learn how to be carried.


    Take heed and let it be a lesson... if you are responsibile for a group, it may serve you alll for you to make sure YOU can care for them should need present. ..
    that's what teams and good team players do.. shaolin buddhism is not about 'me' in any other way except for ensuring yourself being an individually strong and effectively functioning link.. ... (ask Shi Xing Hao and the Texas crew about thaat one!! ) .. and neither is warrior mentality...and further more, thAt is what leadership is made of... and at Shaoiln where lives can depend on your actions, one needs to have trust that others will also do this.. additionally to being prepared to carry or do their jobs if they can't.
    Welcome to your intro on being a warrior who will step up of his own accord...
    I understand why YanMing felt you had insulted temple... noww understand the lesson.

    Amitabah.

    Blooming Lotus
    Last edited by Guest; 08-20-2006, 11:34 PM.

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    • #3
      in response to the drinks that could have been consumed to prevent what happened...you are scorned or even yelled at (by either yan ming or some all-knowing shaved head orange robe "senior" student) if you grab a drink and its not break time and even at break time there is only enough time for just a sip and those break times only occurred once or twice during class when it was a sweltering hot summer day in the city with the awesome non-existent ventilation. This opinion is based on my experiences almost 3 years ago but it doesnt seem like much has changed.
      "What is barely legal?" - Ali G

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      • #4
        Spunds rough...maybe something like thEy might've gone through themselves at some stage.. training under adverse conditions can be hard..
        Are you sure that that couldn't have been to inspire deep qigong breathing??...
        I understand..and I tried to imagine myselllf in that situation and besides maximising fluids and potassium as much as I could..I 'm fairly sure that's how I'd deal with it..
        breathing that way you Use less oxygen anyway..

        chan inspiration was never pleasant anyway to the best of my knowledge.... like deep or severe and acute pain that might cause a person to discover and change breathing style.. .. and relax and again need yet maximize oxygen intake....

        sometimes these things are only born of need and a common sense coping strategy kicking in..

        harsh but effective.. no greatness was born out of having it easy... at least he and everyone there knew you could all leave should you decide nOt to cope with the YanMing shaolin boot camp .... heck, If others were doing it and were okay, I think I'd like to try.... just because I like to know I can deal with things.. msaybe the guy panicked ... because if he relaxed, he would have been breathing aswell as everyone else.. or maybe he was sick before hand having no business in class anyway.. espEcially without loading potassium earlier and having adequate fluid to train safely..
        Remember ....training with a legitimate real world Warrior!!...
        ahh. the sweet smell of a challenge.

        maybe some ppl should just be careful what they ask for???.. and perhaps it's not forr everyone and not everyone that attempts to train will become proficient.. just like not everyone that shoots to do a certain amount of reps will persist and get therre .. sometimes you just have to eat it up accept your situation , breath that out relax and continue.. like during intense pain management ..

        if you never experience the difficulty, you may miss out on the coping mechanism resulting in a deeper peace for understanding a deeper level of comfort and diiscomfort tolerance..

        Maybe YanMing just figured the boys of hiis generation coped and so his students might've found the same inspiration.. because they came there to learn the old school shaolin ways....

        as a teacher of that.. I find it kind.. like the old school might've about the sticks they used to help condition the young monks..


        yay for soft America and it's opportunity to learn how reeeally to cope..

        ...wonder what Deyang's up to today .....
        Blooming Lotus

        Comment


        • #5
          P.s. besides the whispers he's being held imprisoned, how many of those that have been to shaolin si remember that even today still sometimes both water and power supply is turned off ... and regularly at that???!!.... aand for a day or more..I remember that Doc knows that because Gene Ching dedicated practically half an entire article to a public spit that Doc had about it in a ( no doubt tiny and albeit airless room of a )hotel in DengFeng once when they were out there together...... not that we'll go into thaat ..

          You see thaat is a dinky dy honest shaolin experience... and considering he talks temple.. it's no wonder ..welcome to the way of the warriors... if you can't handle it, ..well you just can't.

          amitabah!.

          Blooming Lotus

          Comment


          • #6
            Dave, Please see the edited version in the other thread titled the same and feel free to read a sutra or a history book or several or both...or the book" the business leadership battleground for upcommers" ..if such title exists.
            Ok there's no doubt...you're another crazy 'shaolin dude'

            I don't want to bother with this shit anymore..just losing my time

            The only thing I know is that as a teacher you're responsable for your students ! And Us isn't China...WAKE UP !

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            • #7
              BL speaking of soft things how are those oranges in socks you call boobs doing?

              Sure we can make assumptions about the health of Iron Cross during that time but thats not what is in question. What we are talking about is someone's lack of teaching ability. Since we are assuming things, I am assuming Yan Ming doesnt know much therefore he doesnt teach much. None of his senior students are more than circus acrobats if even that. His Qi gong class was a joke (2 people in it and it seemed like we were the first two he ever tried to teach....i still dont know what i learned he never explained it or had someone explain it). I have seen better tai chi at senior centers out here in the suburbs.

              Sure hard training can bring about great things but a teacher should be able to know his students limits and abilities. He should be able to push them just enough past the line so they themselves know their limits.
              "What is barely legal?" - Ali G

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              • #8
                All of the defenses I've heard of SYM (which assume the truth of the story in question) boil down to "toughen up". You can bring the East vs. West thing into it but the point remains, toughen up. While that can be good advice, it's not when the damage has already been done, i.e., when the student in question is unconscious on the floor. To beat up on this guy for having passed out completely misses the point that once he was passed out, something should have been done, and nothing was. I don't care where you come from, that's not right and it's definitely not good teaching. I realize that idolizing and emulating asian culture is a big part of martial arts in the U.S., but at some point you've really got to take a step back and apply some common sense to the situation.
                Last edited by zachsan; 08-21-2006, 08:35 PM.

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                • #9
                  lolo tet

                  bottom line blooming is i dont think u have any idea how hard some teachers can really push, or hit for that matter

                  from what ive seen of the gung fu out of shaolin im not impressed, really i envy their flexibility and athleticism but then again i respect the same thing from gymnastics

                  also..yan ming not teaching on a regular basis is ridiculous, if this really is true, these people truly do not know anything

                  most people arent cut out to be martial artists, imho and that of other more skilled people... 1 in every 10,000 are really cut out for it

                  so it is neccesary to take time and show the majority whats good, because most just arent perceptive enough or naturally talented to just pick up what is neccesary to really excell

                  not to mention really, if you look at alot of these monks and their demeanor, you can just tell if they werent forced to train and babied all along the way they would just be another delinquent chinese cab driver, they should thank their lucky stars the government through them into the program

                  and yan ming should be lucky no one can check the authenticity of his story about being adopted by shaolin temple.
                  "did you ask me to consider dick with you??" blooming tianshi lotus

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Tetsamaru,..
                    That is such a western perspective! ... and totally against the grain of a kungfu mindset..

                    Steve is likely going to persecute me here for continuing this with you, but that is exaactly what I was talking about in my first post on this about gongfu at earnest and as an internal practioner having a brand of crazy ..that when you look into it and apply western words and querie andd expolaination to derfining by thOse scientific parameters of justification, it gets ..complex.. and while pplmay see the results ... like in hard qigong for example, to hear the exlpaination and walk them step by step through what that actually takes in conditioning and mind and so forth, and even lifestyle and why and how it's been use in the past and why it might be of use now or to future generations, would likely just drive the great bulk of western ppl without the familiarity of chan and delving intodeeper levels our subconsciousness absolutely mad unless and until the end goal was reached .... bearing in mind that that discovery path indeeed invovles what should other wise not have a sequitous conclusion ending in better health and state of mind, a thought process and emotional cleaning that resembles or even quantifies crazy and mentally unstable... in any other circumstance but healthful conclusion and better quality of life and less hardship..
                    and maybe thats why YanMing didn't stop to explain and instead would prefer you "do" and experience yourself.. once a person has been exposed to something new, natural animal curiosity takes over and we want to know how it works.. why ch'an is best experienced and can't reeally be defined by words..

                    Crazy like what Siddartha buddha went through .. a Prince for christ sake, packs up from the castle , leaves his kingdom of adoring fans and goes bush because he can't stAaand the hardships he sees from his castle balcony window as he watches over the land, nor the way ppl fight and struggle to survive and all it entails... who besides Doc does thaat for crimminey??
                    ..

                    starves and just watches until some hot girl offers him porridge and beggs him not to die so he asks her not to leave ..or rather after some persistance on her part, he leaves with her ... goes back to society and has a whole religion built on the strength of the notes of his experience ... that he thenn spends the rest of his life sharing notes from ... the sitting down contemplating part almost similar to how and what might lead someone else seeing the same to drink or become violent or use drugs or whathaveyou.. once you've been exposed, there iis no turning back ... only the other side of the tunnel..




                    switching mentalities and imagining limits and so forth as opposed to submiting to deeper natures.. like in iron head qigong for example...

                    Here is a picture of YanMing performing some iron head


                    and we knOw that this can be done with bricks and iron bars ...

                    what the hell kind of crazy makes someone believe they can smash a brick or iron bar over or into a persons head without believing they are about to murder them???!!??.... the explaination ..the words ..are complicated to understand ... and until you are there and developing each level of skill progressing through each step, it's hard to truly understand how it works .. like trying to understand what it must be like to eat an orange when someones describing it to you yet you have no word or feeling or sensation of practical understanding of the words 'sweet' ... you can imagine..but until you actually have a concept youve experienced to caall sweet , you don't know and therefore you mighrt go crazy or sound crazy wondering if sweet could really exist... or how to describe it ... or rich or beautiful or safe or no longer lonely or whathaveyou...


                    By you questioning YanMings teaching ability in thaat fashion, you imo become the person who's never eaten an orange or experienced sweet trying to tell someone else what is sweet and what is not ... when truth be told, you got no idea .

                    I also don't appreciate you inquiring about my boobs.. clearly I still have them and this is how the more sexually sick of you all keep getting me in trouble in the first place...

                    it's gross.. and it turns me off and it always has... I know someone who gets drunk and talks exActly like that.. and now we dOnt talk...
                    As far as I'm concerned it's disrespectful and almost an indication of woman hating and repressed issues ... including when you speak about your own bits out of health or fitness or even medical context ... thats why I used to speak to you all about it when you raised it, to counsel you through and out of the destructive self sabotaging mind frame that is to de-smutt your head but what to do ...

                    anyway.....

                    I'm sorry Steve that series of ugly travel worn photos for you all to gauge a judgement , if I had some nice ones in the right media I'd send it to you.


                    The USA definately iisn't China and thAt Dave is the point.

                    Blooming Lotus

                    P.s. Yan ming is pictured at shaolinwolf with Deyang.. aand xing haoand at song shan playing gongfu.. imo there iis noquestion of his authenticity..

                    Zachsan.. you're right but as opposed to in China dUring the bloody wars and attacks, ..that student had access to ambulances and knew when he walked out the experience was over .. other students there were okay eluding that there were other factors than YanMings methods. For myself who has regularly had kungfu and that training mind and constitution etc bail mee personally out of many a potential situation, that iis common sense practice training ... what to do when sh*t goes down with no notice ... reality drills .. and lucky to have someone prepared to offer that training in the safe confines of a class you can go home from. It's rough out here and I'm sorry you can't appreciate it.
                    Last edited by Guest; 08-21-2006, 09:51 PM.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Hmmmm some interesting things posted here for sure....

                      best thing I saw written so far was regardless of what situation brought me to get heat stroke the point is the response after the fact..... thats very true and why I was upset to beign with...

                      For the record I wasn't sick before hand and my health was actually incredibly good... I had been to a cardiologist a few months prior and he said my heart was in incredible shape and physically I was healthy as one could be... was eating a balanced diet... supplemented with vitamins.. ate about 5 meals a day spread out throughout the day... Drank the recommended 8-10 glasses of water a day too...

                      The plain fact was is was balls to the wall hot in there.... wearing the full heavy orange robe didn't help... and yan Ming closed a curtain across the floor which reduced air flow to 0... mind you before that the air flow was not good at all....

                      Prior to me passing out I was taking heat form both the guy running class and yan ming for not moving fast enough.... and its true you do get scolded for trying to take water breaks during class.... If you ask they say no and to keep training... But its true their logic is nothing to do with legit medical issues or problems but just that your weak.... Yan Ming doesn't even believe in heat exhaustion or heat stroke.... he told me it was all in my mind... Nevermind that now I can't train in heat or humidity for very long before having to rest.... I think that night has affected me more than I origionally thought and could be seeing some lasting physical effects for a while..... I find it impossible to train at the same level of intensity I once trained on a regular basis.... Lately I've been forced to take it easy...

                      I'm not saying don't defend the man or the place... hell say what you want... just be prepared for a response... and do try to keep an open mind about these things... I try and I have reason more than anyone here to jsut be angry about the whole thing...
                      The essential point in science it not a complicated mathematical formalism or a ritualized experimentation. Rather the heart of science is a kind of shrewd honesty the springs from really wanting to know what the hell is going on!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Bl I don't think yan ming is in any of those pictures on that link you posted.....

                        And for the record I never was questioning his validity...... thats a none issue to me right now.... The guy could be the best shaolin monk the world has ever known.. he could know 10,000 forms... hes still a crappy teacher and irresponsible..
                        The essential point in science it not a complicated mathematical formalism or a ritualized experimentation. Rather the heart of science is a kind of shrewd honesty the springs from really wanting to know what the hell is going on!

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          BL... get off it. Your unrivaled capacity to delude yourself aside, you're not a warrior of any kind unless you're in the Australian armed forces (which possibility I feel safe dismissing out of hand), and you're certainly not in medieval China. You like so many others can only appeal to your own authority as a "hardened martial artist" because you have nothing smart or relevant to say. Of course, you'll most likely try to refute that by repeating the same fallacy, and there's nothing I can do about that, except to hope whoever's reading this has half a brain.

                          The USA definately iisn't China and thAt Dave is the point.
                          The point is that a dimwitted rich guy left a student passed out on the ****ing ground in the middle of a class for which he was being paid to take responsibility. Sorry if I'm getting more upset than usual but there's dumb and then there's this. I just can't understand how people can be so caught up in an adolescent fantasy that they can't tell basic right from wrong.

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                          • #14
                            The student couldn't breathe on the floor because he got anxious being spoken to about participation levels.




                            I really am going to consider crying when I get into trouble again here for continuing the conversation but you admit then IronCross that directly prior the seizures you were suffering anxiety and your breathing had already been in an unhealthful state??

                            This is a warning sign..you ignored it and failed to identify your cue to chill or not be a difficult behaviour management issue for those running the class.. no wonder you felt it was hard to breathe ..and they probably wree less sypathetic because you worked yoursellf into that state... because IronCross,your lack of particpation in the activity was unwelcome.. and it was pointed out to you.

                            and you were guilty of undue rebellion. If you didn't want to participate or weren't up to it, which happens sometimes then you shouldn't have been there. Deyang quotes " You are Only as good as your last performance". ..at that point on that day, you performed poorly an comprimised the entire group.
                            I understand. I once came back from China with sars like symptoms and within a week or 2 was at a seminar with a visiting monk and same thing.. I just wasn't performing well ...difference is, I bit the bullet and asked permission to sit out and watch as opposed to distrupting or slowing down the rest..


                            It's harsh and tricky but you were out of shape then if you were healthy and you werrre slowing down the group..
                            at shaOlin gongfu class more than anywhere else just about because of the nature of how the drills are run and the weight of that component in the class structure, if you do that, you will likely feel uncomfortable . It upsets the class.


                            If you couldn't keep up then maybe you needed to go home and practice your drills or condition better before you participated in them with the class again.
                            .. or needed to be honest and speak to a senior student after or before class about how you could still train with them but be treated as beginner and maybe request a beginners leaniency.

                            Other students in that class were Okay. You were upset you couldn't keep up and as a result you became anxious and eventually you couldn't breathe.
                            If it was that bad, everyone else or at least some of the other students would've had the same reaction. You claim you were in perfect health. ..
                            Last edited by Guest; 08-21-2006, 10:27 PM.

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                            • #15
                              So now not only is it his fault, but he should be sorry for slowing down the rest of the class. Unbelievable.

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