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  • Kung Fu + Jiu Jitsu?

    Hi Doc. This is my first time on your website and I am quite impressed.

    I have a blackbelt in Tae Kwon Do but have not practiced that style for several years. Since then, I've sparred with students of various martial arts and have learned bits and pieces of different styles. Recently I began taking Shaolin Kung Fu. I've taken it for 4 months and am now a yellow sash.

    The other day a friend invited me to train with him at the dojo where he teaches Jiu Jitsu. He is a second degree blackbelt in Weeping style Jiu Jitsu and also knows Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. We sparred and he mopped the floor with me (literally). I am used to fighting people who use standing, striking styles of martial arts (Karate, Tae Kwon Do, Ninjutsu, Kung Fu, etc.). I was completely unprepared for an opponent who specializes in ground fighting/grappling and joint manipulation.

    Three questions for you: Does Shaolin Kung fu contain enough grappling/joint manipulation/throws to put its practitioner on a level playing field with a student of Jiu Jitsu who is willing to take a few strong blows in order to get inside and wrap you up? If so, are these techniques at an advanced level or are they so dispersed throughout Shaolin's curriculum that it takes years to build a reportoire of them? And most importantly: In your expert opinion, should I focus solely on learning Kung Fu, or should I take Kung Fu and Jiu Jitsu simultaneously?

    Thank you for your time,
    -Michael

  • #2
    I have no expert opinion. With that said, here's my very inexpert opinion.

    There are grappling techniques in Shaolin, you'll find them in chin na training. Most of these movements, as I've learned (a few) and watched (many) from Shaolin's legendary chin na master, Shi Su Gang, tend to be performed upright. It seems that in gong fu, getting on the floor is not the place where you want to be. Which, if you think about it historically, with all those nasty weapons and stuff that they used in the past, and with all those nasty multitudes of people fighting, a warrior on the ground was most definitely at a disadvantage.

    Su Gang was quite the spectacular individual. Going to the ground was not the option, as far as I could see. He could wrap you up and immobilize you, before you even went to the ground. The idea was, to immobilize and hurt your opponent with joint locks and breaks, and then, use traditional gong fu to strike, disable, and floor your opponent. Traditional applications of Shaolin gong fu have many throws and methods of putting your opponent on the ground, even though they are not obvious, and not always taught by modern practitioners. Su Gang's method was to disable the strike, disable the opponent, and use gong fu means to drop the guy. By himself. Going to the ground with your opponent, just put you at a disadvantage, with respect to your opponent's friends.

    Most would agree that the same goes for modern times. Walk down a street in New York, get attacked by three guys, and taking someone to the ground in a joint lock will only get the shit kicked out of you. The ground is not the place to be, unless you like fighting one on one in a ring. The current trend in the martial arts, Jiu Jitsu and Muay Thai, to be peformed in the UFC and other rings, is an excellent combination. I wouldn't want to watch one of those guys go up against any of those Shaolin guys. Then again, I wouldn't want to watch one of those guys go up against multiple attackers with only grappling techniques.

    The chin na training that seems to be available from the newer generation of "monks", is on a more basic level than what was taught in the past. Su Gang was the man with respect to this stuff; he used to teach it to the older generations years ago, and he stopped teaching it regularly many years ago. His focus moved into tai chi, and, not surprisingly, the combat applications thereof. The older generation monks have some knowledge of it, but, as I've noticed, not anywhere near what Su Gang had in his hard little head. I haven't seen it taught at the wushu guan in many years. No doubt, there are others who have this knowledge; I can't remember his name, but he wrote many books on it, and from what I read, he had quite the repertoire. Referring to chin na training as "advanced" would be wrong these days; in my opinion, a better word to use would be "absent". You can get the basics, but, that seems to be it. Unless you find someone that truly understands it.

    Muay Thai is an excellent, all around fitness / fighting system; I train in it daily when I'm in Thailand. I find that the similarities with Shaolin sanda are quite strong, though sanda has more techniques. If you look beneath the flamboyance of modern Shaolin, which most people refer to as wushu, you will find distinct, occasionally complicated fighting techniques. Problem is, many of these applications have been lost on the current generation of "monks"; their training more in tune with performances than with the passing on of traditional methods. The older guys have the knowledge; the problem is, they are few and far between.

    Also, just FYI, in traditional Shaolin training, there were no belts or color distinguishing features. It's a modern "addition", one which follows the Japanese, and subsequently, American, martial arts. It seems to be used, and used successfully, in this country and others, as a marketing and commercial tool. Personally, I'm against it. But, I have a different view on these things.

    What you train in all depends upon what you want to get out of it. Both kung fu and jiu jitsu are excellent fields of study, both have different approaches, and both complement each other. Nothing wrong with doing both simultaneously. I've found that when you train in different disciplines simultaneously, you start to see similarities that you would have not realized were there. You start to see how everything is kind of tied together, in certain ways. It will most definitely give you a broader understanding of each.

    You have to figure out what your focus is going to be on. If you're interested in getting into the ring, Muay Thai and Jiu Jitsu seem to be the best combination. If you're interested in the health, physical, mental and spiritual aspects of a martial art, a good kung fu teacher is indispensable, and, it's a great art to learn. What degree of those variables you learn depends upon the quality of your teacher. Jiu Jitsu is great if you want to grapple. Decide where you want to go with all of this before you really start putting your time and effort into one discipline. You might want to play with a few of these to see which you feel more interested in, and then focus on the one or two that you seem to derive the most benefit from.
    Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

    "You're just a jaded cynical mother****er...." Jeffpeg

    (more comments in my User Profile)
    russbo.com


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    • #3
      "What you train in all depends upon what you want to get out of it. Both kung fu and jiu jitsu are excellent fields of study, both have different approaches, and both complement each other. Nothing wrong with doing both simultaneously. I've found that when you train in different disciplines simultaneously, you start to see similarities that you would have not realized were there. You start to see how everything is kind of tied together, in certain ways. It will most definitely give you a broader understanding of each."









      Very true,

      i say study jujitsu, or else it will be your weakness (if you fight hobbywise or professionally)

      when fighting a jujitsu fighter, learn to sprawl to defend against takedowns, because once you're on the ground its either stand up as fast as you can (escape) or counter grapple. and if you cant counter grapple you will eventually get choked or armbarred or whatever.
      "Life is a run. In attack we run, in defense we run. When you can no longer run, time to die" - Shichiroji "Seven samurai"

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      • #4
        Your Shaolin and TKD might have been performance oriented in the first place...
        Becoming what I've dreamed about.

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        • #5
          Well, TKD is limited when it comes to good fighting techniques, but, it will be most helpful with respect to his gong fu training.

          The Shaolin training he ends up getting may be performance oriented, as you say too....
          Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

          "You're just a jaded cynical mother****er...." Jeffpeg

          (more comments in my User Profile)
          russbo.com


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          • #6
            Thank you guys for the insight. I think I will take Kung Fu and Jiu Jitsu simultaneously. At least until I am competant at grappling/counter grappling, and dodging or subduing tackles.

            As far as performance oriented, I'm not sure I know what you mean. If you mean in regard to tournament fighting, then my TKD was somewhat, but my Kung Fu training definitely is not. It is geared toward combat application. (not that I'm going into combat or anything like that)

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            • #7
              well depending on your teacher and how you train your gongfu should be able to beat a jui jitsu guy standing up, i mean it does help to cross train some ground fighting just so if you do happen to get taken down you have enough skills to avoid obvious mistake .. ie leaving an arm out stretched etc.. as well as being able to move well enough so you can have a chance to get back to your feet where your gongfu would be superior.. even in my wingchun training we stress footwork so much that whenever i spar with juijitsu guys they cant shoot on me without catching punches during theyre whole attempt, then even the few times i do get taken down i can move well enough and with my chi sau hands , manage to just stand back up where they cant handle me..

              dont get me wrong though many respects to juijitsu guys, ive just trained years and years in my footwork and my root, so its just all in my opinion.. overall its great to mix with, have some nasty stand up skills, then if you manage to get taken down put the moves on them there as well

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              • #8
                I've trained in jujitsu for some time. Most recently at Renzo Gracie's schol in New York. A lot of the people there are from other arts (i.e. Karate, Tae Kwon do, Muay Thai etc.) Many of the guys who start with Brazilian Jujitsu, as their first art, tend to do some Muay Thai and/or boxing to complement their ground work. Certainly, the combination of Kung Fu and Brazilian Jujitsu will round you out as a martial artist and hopefully be a lot of fun in the process. Personally, I really enjoy the rolling (randori/sparring) aspect found in jujitsu training. At the very least, you will learn to deal with an opponent's attempts to take you down, and, if he does take you down, you will learn to escape and get back to your feet as others have stated. Remember, there is no destination, its all about the trip. So enjoy the trip.

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                • #9
                  tito vs chuck-nuff said

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                  • #10
                    styles are styles, people stick out not styles.

                    if you want to be the best you have to train yourself to be better at everything. speed, power, strength, stamina, techniques etc. you have to always elevate yourself to be more fluid and skillfull. these are the things that matter most.

                    it is good to know how to defend yourself against others, but you also need to take into account your opponent is more often then not going to be bigger and stronger then you, and you should train with this in mind.

                    what if your opponent is to strong to lock up or is to big to hold down. what if you cant get close to them, what if they are faster then you and hit you before you can even react.

                    i say study 1 style at a time, once your already competent in one discipline and already fit etc then you can move onto other things and make them your strengths

                    and even with a background in martial arts, if you dont fight you dont know. if you dont atleast spar with your superiors you wont know what to change or why
                    "did you ask me to consider dick with you??" blooming tianshi lotus

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                    • #11
                      I think it's like doc said, it's a question of what you're training for. If you're training to compete one-on-one in a MMA setting, obviously you'll want a fair amount of BJJ or some other type of grappling experience. Kickboxing or Muay Thai, of course, don't require any. If you're real into the whole spiritual/esoteric angle of it, and not really competition, something like traditional gongfu might be better.

                      Of course the most common reason given is "self-defense". But defense against what? The truth is that the more serious the threat, the less any kind of MA training will matter (unless you count marksmanship as a martial art). Hopefully I don't have to tell you not to whip out your kung fu skills against four guys in a back alley with mysterious objects in their hands. This isn't a movie. But anyway I'm going off on a tangent.

                      My main point is, figure out what it is you're really training for, and then what to practice should be pretty clear. "To be a better fighter" isn't nearly specific enough.

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                      • #12
                        The info and views in this thread no doubt apply differently to everyone who reads it. For example, I have some friends who are current and ex-military. One is an ex-Army ranger who served in the first gulf war. More than once, due to the nature of his missions, he had to engage in hand-to-hand combat with armed enemy soldiers. Sometimes it was a knife fight. Sometimes he had to take their gun away from them to stay alive; and just wrestling someones gun away from them isn't how you do it; that's how you get shot. It involves speed, accuracy, and technique. What kind of techniques? Well if you ask him, he will tell you martial arts. Maybe not specifically gong fu or muey tai or whatever, but the techniques that form military hand-to-hand combat are taken directly from many martial arts styles and then simplified.

                        I'm NOT saying that if you train in your style hard enough that you can dodge bullets or that it will enable you to take on gun-wielding attackers. I'm saying that if military guys take on gun-wielding enemy with inferior MA training (although specialized for disarming opponents), then your MA training gives you the same type of speed, accuracy, technique, and heightened awareness/attention advantages over someone who only knows how to point and shoot. Maybe they shift their attention for half a second. Maybe you see the gun coming out of their pocket before they can get it pointed at you. See where I'm going with this? I know that many soldiers die. But when you have a gun pointed at you, you may be dead already even if you do exactly as they tell you.

                        Plus, you really don't know what you're going to do when someone puts a gun in your face until it happens. I like to have every advantage I can get -just in case.

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                        • #13
                          The best people ive ever sparred against were at a mixed martial arts school led by a former mma competition coach. He taught only BJJ, Xingyiquan, and Baguazhang.

                          His good students were rediculous. Of the ground sparring i did, i could easly dominate the lower level students, at which point I'd put a guy in a pin he couldnt escape from and then teach him how to get out of my pin. (this was the way i was taught to do freeplay with people who you outskill)

                          The intermediate students, i could totally hold my own with, in both grappling and standing striking. Being tapped out on the ground, but also tapping out my opponent. In striking sparring against a tae kwon do black belt and 3year student of xingyi, i was able to hold my own very well, taking some hits but managing to soften up the same spot of my oppents ribs, repeatedly. He always fell for a feinted left hand jab to the face followed by a low right jab to the body in quick succession, both strikes using the same breath.

                          Of the best grappling students whom i sparred with, I was completely outclassed. I would tap within 90 seconds of engagement, without fail.

                          IMHO, this combination of xingyiquan and brazilian jiu jitsu in a skilled fighter makes a very powerful combination in mixed martial arts. I'd be going to that school more often for the free sparring every saturday if only it werent 1-3 hours drive away, traffic depending.

                          If you intend to be profficient against MMA fighters, you will need to train floor work. BJJ is an excellent style for this, especially with a competent teacher and a competent student.

                          However, as maestro put it, its the student, not the style, that wins bouts. There was only one BJJ student at that school who could repeatedly tap me out, but i was never even close when I engaged him.

                          As doc said, gongfu, much like muay thai, rarely focuses or teaches ground work. The reasoning is archaic, on a historical battlefield setting, if 2 opponents are engaged in unarmed ground fighting, they're likely to both end up speared.

                          If you want to be more profficient in ground work, train it. Its that simple.
                          Show me a man who has forgotten words, so that I can have a word with him.

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                          • #14
                            shuai jiao...di tong...dog style...snake style...monkey style...

                            all better than jiu jitsu when taught properly. all have ground applications as well as stand up.

                            Cung le is a good example of a shaolin taught "MMA" fighter. He was taught by De Ru. Alot of his throws/take downs are shuai jiao.
                            "What is barely legal?" - Ali G

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                            • #15
                              I love watching that man fight.
                              Becoming what I've dreamed about.

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