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  • Shaolin training: Is it worthwhile?

    I'm seriously considering a visit to China, possibly long-term, in order to learn their culture, language, and martial arts. But I don't know where to go, or who I should contact, to get quality training. I'm sure you've got more knowledge about this than almost anyone, so I'd really appreciate your insight.

    I read through the forums, the site, and asked people who've trained in China what it's really like and if it's realistic to expect the ability to participate in serious training, and honestly it's still rather unclear. I hear some parts of their training were good, some parts were bad, but that ultimately it's not what people expected. And generally, it seems people didn't get the physical challenge and skilled instruction they sought.

    About me: I'm 19, and currently in college in the U.S. I'm in good shape, pretty strong and athletic, and have a couple years martial arts experience in TKD. I joined the TaeKwonDo club at my college, too, so I hope to be somewhat prepared should I decide to go to China after school's over.

    If I go, I want it to be serious and effective training. Not some fake. I'd be willing to spend the money in order to get quality training, too. For the length of time, I plan on anywhere between 1-3 years, depending on if I see value in the training.

    I know I'm not gunna be some monk. I'm not going to be Jet Li, either. But what I expect is if I make the sacrifice of time, money, and effort, I should be in good shape and somewhat skilled.

    If you could give me some advice as to how I might find quality training, I would be indebted to you.

    Thanks,

    Sincerely
    xxxxxx
    Nothing is ever what you expect it to be. That's what makes life fun.

    We all have these images of what Shaolin Temple should be. Back in 1995, when I first went there, I had a certain image as to what the place would be like. Well, I was kind of wrong. What I had imagined from all those television shows and other media bullshit that had distorted my mind, was completely different than the reverent circus that I had experienced. Though, back then I had met martial monks that really did live in the temple. Martial monks who had sixty to eighty year old traditional masters. Martial monks who were genuinely interested in teaching the art as precisely as they had learned it from their masters, as their masters had learned it from their masters.

    Things change. They always do. The current temple changed in 1999 when Yongxin took power. The "new sheriff in town" mentality caused almost all of the old real masters to take off. What was left, were students, some in Yongxin's schools, some from other schools. And a few Buddhist monks who had decided to pledge fealty and stay. The past seven years have been a bit of a Disney E ticket, but hopefully, some stability will eventually emerge. What this means to you, and to others who try to train there, is the following.

    There are genuine, older masters, who still teach in the Shaolin area. You just have to find them. There are far more "monks", who have grown up in one of the hundreds of Shaolin based schools in the area, who occasionally wear orange robes, and have monk names. These guys most definitely have skills, martial arts wise. They may know nothing about Buddhism, but they're gong fu is good. Here in lies the problem; tourists go there to train with "monks" and generally find behavior that is not consistent with monks. Well, guess what, there's a reason for that. They're not monks. But, they are good martial artists, and you can learn one hell of a lot from them. Want good harsh training? You can get it. They may not be monks, but they're good.

    Will you have the experience that I had in the late nineties? That depends upon who you train with. As I've said before, the older guys are still there, though they tend to keep their heads down a bit. There was a lot of political upheaval and "master reassigning" over the past seven years; a lot of these older, and more "real" guys just do their thing and try not to get involved. You'll also find many schools trying to capture the foreigner market; as I've said before, a website means nothing, but many, many foreigners are captivated by the concept of training with "Shaolin monks", even though most of the guys that teach at that school have never been to Dengfeng. You have to be careful with how you pick. Remember, caveat emptor. It most definitely applies to anything in China, the land of "smoke and mirrors", less politically correctly known as "bullshit".

    I would not go for one to three years. I've said that many times before. Make your first journey an exploratory one. If you like it, go back or stay. If not, find other options. Don't give up the great years of your youth torturing yourself in that shithole. There's far too many other things a 19 year old guy should be doing. But, also, don't be disappointed by the negative stories that you've heard from other people. Training at Shaolin, even in wushu with some Chinese coach who smokes, drinks and bangs whores, can be a worthwhile experience. Personally, I hate the ****ing place. In the past twelve years, I've been there eighteen times, for a cumulative total of almost two years. I truly hate being there. I don't particularly care for the people, the infrastructure, the food, the environment, and the ladies. The training has been superb (I train with Shi De Cheng, have done so since 1995), and, sometimes I hate the training too. Have I mentioned I hate the ****ing place?

    Yet, I may go back in a few weeks. I hate it. I always return.

    Some of my most cherished memories have been from that ****ing place....

    So, do go. Enjoy it for what it is, not for what you expect it to be. Don't push yourself to stay longer than you want to. Get the most that you can out of the wonderful culture, the shit stench filled beautiful environment, the training whatever it is you get when you get there. It's a "one bra size" country, one of the most unique, ugly, beautiful, horrible and lovable places on earth.

    Let me know when you're going. I'll help you set things up. I have people in China that can take care of you.
    Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

    "You're just a jaded cynical mother****er...." Jeffpeg

    (more comments in my User Profile)
    russbo.com



  • #2
    so doc,

    if you find one of these real old masters and follow them around and shave your head and obey their every command to show your earnest desire to learn from them will they teach you for free just to pass on the art?

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    • #3
      anyone who has you obey their every command, or shave your head, just to learn from them is... is not somebody you should be learning from.

      or is that what you want to be passing down yourself?
      ZhongwenMovies.com

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      • #4
        Well here in Shangrila, we found a lama from the karma kagyu (orgyen trinle, not the fake one!) who teaches us for free. He gave us the option to become lay disciples or nun and monk, but takes times to consider.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by skittalion View Post
          so doc,

          if you find one of these real old masters and follow them around and shave your head and obey their every command to show your earnest desire to learn from them will they teach you for free just to pass on the art?
          Um, probably not.

          Money does play a role in the current "modern" Shaolin. Long term relationships tend to help.
          Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

          "You're just a jaded cynical mother****er...." Jeffpeg

          (more comments in my User Profile)
          russbo.com


          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by onesp1ng View Post
            anyone who has you obey their every command, or shave your head, just to learn from them is... is not somebody you should be learning from.

            or is that what you want to be passing down yourself?
            They make you shave your head in the military.
            But seriously, didn't "masters" used to take on students simply for the sake of passing their knowledge down.

            Also, isn't obedience important for the sake of learning?

            It's cool that liutangsanzang found someone who would teach for free. What is a "lay disciple"? and what do nuns and monks do anyways? Can a woman become a monk?

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            • #7
              But seriously, didn't "masters" used to take on students simply for the sake of passing their knowledge down.
              yes, it does happen. i don't pay either.

              Also, isn't obedience important for the sake of learning?
              dogs and children are taught to be obedient. you're free to do what you want. why give someone the right to control you so easily?

              does that make you happy? are you training to learn how to be a 'good boy?'

              i'd substitute that obedience with your own passion, discipline, open-mindedness, and perseverance. that way you'll develop naturally, and without the pressure of being something you're not..
              ZhongwenMovies.com

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              • #8
                "one bra size" lol


                Yeah, i dont think i will ever get to see china, though i would like to.

                As for finding an old master that will teach your for free, thats awesome, thats like finding a couple grand on the floor these days.

                As for needing to learn how to live, we all need guidance, and we all need to learn. Some people need a LOT of guidance and help. So i dont think there is anything with learning how to be a good boy, if you never have, or cant do so on your own. I think the real problem lies in finding a good teacher.

                As for trying to be something you are not, i think chuangzi would say that one cannot help but being what they are, regardless of what they are trying to be.
                "Life is a run. In attack we run, in defense we run. When you can no longer run, time to die" - Shichiroji "Seven samurai"

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by onesp1ng View Post
                  yes, it does happen. i don't pay either.



                  dogs and children are taught to be obedient. you're free to do what you want. why give someone the right to control you so easily?

                  does that make you happy? are you training to learn how to be a 'good boy?'

                  i'd substitute that obedience with your own passion, discipline, open-mindedness, and perseverance. that way you'll develop naturally, and without the pressure of being something you're not..
                  actually, I agree

                  I decided this year that obedience is not a virtue, it's just a lie someone came up with to control people
                  I really had thought that you needed to be obedient to learn, but that's probably just a leftover habit from school

                  do you think there are people who are naturally obedient, like a submissive, or is that just a cultural/lifestyle choice/upbringing thing?

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                  • #10
                    Read the introduction to a book called "The Book of Secrets" by Osho. I feel it touches on this.

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                    • #11
                      China is a great place for tourist and i have visited thrice time and still want to visit when i found time.
                      Sheheryar from Pakistan

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                      • #12
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