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  • Lohan forms, help !

    Hi

    I have learned 2 lohan forms :

    The first seems to be half of shaolin "er lu lohan" quan that means "Second Series Lohan", (Shi Xin Wei told
    us it was shaolin quan, but we did have a translation problem from chinese, the translator could not translate the exact words, we understood from Xin Wei that it was a for used for shaolin kung fu competition).

    And another lohan form (by Shi De Sheng) that have a passage "walking like a drunken man" (3 steps).

    But I do not know the correspondance betwen these 2 forms the xiao lohan and da lohan (if there is any?)


    Is "shaolin er lu lohan quan" = "shaolin quan"

    OR is "shaolin er lu lohan quan" (the complete version) = "da lohan quan"

    Is the lohan quan with a a passage "walking like a drunken man" "xia loahan"?

    Can someone give me some clues.

    Thank's a lot.

  • #2
    The first seems to be half of shaolin "er lu lohan" quan that means "Second Series Lohan", (Shi Xin Wei told us it was shaolin quan, but we did have a translation problem from chinese, the translator could not translate the exact words, we understood from Xin Wei that it was a for used for shaolin kung fu competition).
    Shaolin quan basically means shaolin boxing, or shaolin fist. It is not the name of a form per se. And you will expect that Shi Xing Wei will know more competitive wushu forms, he's a younger monk. I've written about this transition somewhere in a journal in the Archive; it actually is a sorry state of affairs, as the younger monks are learning less of the traditional Shaolin forms, and more of the "modernized" competitive wushu.

    And another lohan form (by Shi De Sheng) that have a passage "walking like a drunken man" (3 steps).
    Shi De Cheng knows more traditional forms. The "walking like a drunken man" segment that you refer to is part of Xiao Lohan (small lohan), a very traditional lohan form.

    But I do not know the correspondance betwen these 2 forms the xiao lohan and da lohan (if there is any?)
    They are both sacred lohan forms, but other than that, there is no similarity, not like you see between Shao Hong Chuan and Da Hong Chuan.

    OR is "shaolin er lu lohan quan" (the complete version) = "da lohan quan"
    No. Shi Xing Wei does not know the entire Da Lohan. Few do. The younger monks generally have not learned more than the first half of the rather large and very sacred Da Lohan. And, to screw things up even more, they tend not to teach the entire form of what they know; they usually only teach half of what they know to foreigners. So, what you've learned may only be a quarter of the original entire traditional form, and, an altered version at that. (They also tend to take out the complicated moves which "slow them down"). I've talked about this somewhere too in the past, again look in the Archive. Generally, the younger monks know the first half, and, a slightly altered version, so that it ends somewhat "correctly". They might call it "Shaolin Er Lu Lohan Quan", but I don't know; I don't keep up with the modern wushu terminology, I try to stick with purely traditional terms and forms. I know the entire Da Lohan form, and I know it as "Da Lohan". Shi De Cheng is one of the few monks who know the proper execution of the entire form.
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    • #3
      Er lu lohan

      Thank's for the precision

      I finally have a complete name for the lohan form with a "drunken man passage" (by Shi De Sheng)

      As for the second form which I refer to as "Er lu Lohan" = "Second series lohan"

      It's the same (with some variation) to an old download coming from you site :

      Lohan Chuan.mpg (file size 4057ko) performed by She Yong Bin (Gene Jian Bin)

      Compared to this mpg file Shi Xin Wei Skipped the praying man posture in the beginning but added some steps at the end (taking sand form the ground and throwing it).

      Does this give you some clues about the form I refor to as the fist part of Er lu lohan.

      Thank's Again

      Comment


      • #4
        The Lohan Chuan that you refer to, which, by the way, is in this forum's File Library, is not Da Lohan.

        It has some maneuvers found in Da Lohan, but it is not organized the way Da Lohan is. The Lohan Chuan you see on this site is much smaller than Da Lohan, Da Lohan being 108 steps, this Lohan Chuan being around thirty or forty. The Lohan Chuan you see on this site is a neat form, and I can see how it was derived from Da Lohan, but, you've got to remember, it is a distant derivation. And, it mimics to some degree, only the first half of the entire Da Lohan.
        Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

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        • #5
          The Lohan Chuan that you refer to, which, by the way, is in this forum's File Library, is not Da Lohan.
          Are you talking about the "slideshow"in "Slideshow Library > Shaolin Gong Fu > Lohan Quan" or another one ?

          Effectively, there is a difference in organisation betwen the one in the slideshow (real media previously an now in
          "Slideshow Library > Shaolin Gong Fu > Lohan Quan") and the other one I refer to (performed by She Yong Bin -Gene Jian Bin- file size 4057ko).

          (I cannot check the others forms in the file library under Gong Fu Videos: "Shaolin monk performed" OR under "Videosisciple/Student" performed because of firewall issues, But I can check form in " Slideshow Library > Shaolin Gong Fu > Lohan Quan" on another line of 56 kbit/s which is not behind the same firewall).

          My question is : which of the 2 lohans refers to some part of da lohan (may be both with another organisation )

          1-Slideshow Library > Shaolin Gong Fu > Lohan Quan
          OR
          2-the one performed by She Yong Bin -Gene Jian Bin- file size 4057ko

          Thank's

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          • #6
            My apologies. I didn't realize I had a "Lohan Quan" in the slideshows.

            I've renamed the Lohan Quan in the slideshows to "Da Lohan", as it represents what is commony being taught in Shaolin to the current monks, as the traditional Da Lohan. But, it is not. It is only half of the entire form, and it has been altered a little in various areas. But, what you see in the slideshow, is mistakenly known to most people in Shaolin, as the entire Da Lohan.
            Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

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            • #7
              To make thinks clear

              Just to make thinks clear, all of this is becoming a little bit confusing

              1-the lohan form with the "drunken man passage" = xia lohan.

              2-the lohan on your site in the "slideshow" directory (the one that was accessible via real media)
              is the abridged version of da lohan.

              3-The lohan form about 30 to 40 steps in the file "Lohan Chuan.mpg of size 4057ko"
              performed by She Yong Bin (Gene Jian Bin)
              (which is the first part of a more complete form I have seen
              under the name of "er lu lohan" -
              noting that the complete form has about a 80 to more than 100 steps, depending on the
              way you count the moves) is what ?
              Where does it come form, (knowing that many shaolin monks know the first part of it)
              Has it any connection with da lohan?

              Thank's again

              Comment


              • #8
                1-the lohan form with the "drunken man passage" = xia lohan.
                This is correct. Xiao Lohan or Shao Lohan.

                2-the lohan on your site in the "slideshow" directory (the one that was accessible via real media)
                Also correct. It is currently a QuickTime slideshow in the File Library, and I've labelled it as such.

                3-The lohan form about 30 to 40 steps in the file "Lohan Chuan.mpg of size 4057ko"
                This is an altered and abbreviated version of the first half of the original 108 step Da Lohan. Da Lohan is about one thousand years old, as is Xiao Lohan. It's origins are unknown to me.
                Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

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                • #9
                  Many routines

                  What if there was many da lohan, many routines, rather that altered versions of the same ?

                  Yi lu lohan (first series lohan)
                  er lu lohan (second series lohan)

                  etc...

                  Yi lu lohan = the one in the slideshow (the one you call the abridged da lohan)

                  er lu lohan = the complete version of the one in the file Lohan Chuan.mpg of size 4057ko by She Yong Bin

                  Il will be doing some research on that.

                  Thanks a lot.

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                  • #10
                    Let us know what you find out. This really could be interesting to explore. I've told you guys all that I know, other than putting up the entire Da Lohan on the site.
                    Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

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                    • #11
                      I learned the form which you refer to as 'Da Lohan' in the slideshow from Li Peng aka Shi Xing Peng with a few others in Belgium last year. I was looking for the correct full name of it. I've seen a lot of different Lohan forms. The form in the slideshow is almost the exact same, but even here a lot of things are left out, so it's even longer. If anyone knows drop me a message what the correct name would be.

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                      • #12
                        I responded to this in the Da Lohan slideshow thread. http://x.russbo.com/vb/showthread.ph...=1763#post1763
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                        • #13
                          Lohan forms

                          In response to your question regarding Lohan quans. From what I understand, the er lohan you are talking about is probably the first part of the arhat boxing lohan quans. There are several of these. It is called er Lohan quan.
                          The first Lohan quan that I have seen taught in Shaolin is the Lohan Duan Da. Then the er Lohan would probably be taught as the next logical Lohan form to follow Lohan Duan Da.

                          There is a Shaolin Quan also. They actually call it Shaolin Quan, and it is a fairly long form. It is not a traditional Lohan quan, but a fairly new (in Shaolin terms) quan that has been compiled from bits and pieces from different traditional Lohan quans. Don't take that for the "gospel" but I'm pretty sure it's correct info.

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                          • #14
                            from what we are taught...

                            The Lohan system at Shaolin is very complex and is one of the oldest formalized systems. Many of it's movements have spread to other forms and even styles, like the first stance of Xing Yi shares the first stance of Lohan Duan Da. The first Lohan form traditionally was the Lohan Shi Ba Shou, the 18 hands of the Lohan, sometimes called 18 Fists of the Lohan. This is the earliest form of Lohan at the Temple, traditionally created by Damo, so the story goes. Then from there it was expanded at various times, Fu Yu expanded it, then it had further expansions. Xiao Lohan, Da Lohan, Lao Lohan, Lohan Duan Da, etc. There are 18 sets of Lohanquan, derived from the original 18 fists. So each fist was taken and expanded into it's own form. Then further each of these 18 sets were expanded to contain 3 sections, and also further to contain 3 more subsections.

                            So it's immense.
                            "Arhat, I am your father..."
                            -the Dark Lord Cod

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                            • #15
                              OK, I got this straightened out today, with Shi De Hong and Shi De Cheng. I was lost on the terminology (Yi Lu, Er Lu, didn't know what lu was).

                              IN Shaolin, only three Lohan Chuan forms are currently known and/or taught.

                              Shao (Xiao) Lohan: Which, as I've mentioned before, has that drunken maneuver in it.

                              Yi Lu Da Lohan: First set of Da Lohan, which, is the first half of the entire Da Lohan, the first half being the half that is generally taught to the monks. Because this is generally the only half that most of the monks know, they might mistakenly refer to this as the "entire Da Lohan". And, to further complicate the issue, some of the younger monks might only teach half of Yi Lu Da Lohan to foreigners, leading them to believe that that is the entire Da Lohan. It gets truly comical sometimes.

                              Er Lu Da Lohan: Second set of Da Lohan, which is the second half of the entire Da Lohan, the second half being the half that is commonly not known by any of the later generation monks, and is known by some of the De (and older) generation monks.

                              If you perform Yi Lu Da Lohan and Er Lu Da Lohan together (one after the other), you essentially will be performing the entire Da Lohan. Remember, Yi Lu Da Lohan + Er Lu Da Lohan = Entire Da Lohan. Oh, and these are very traditional forms, which may be one reason why few of the younger monks want to learn the entire thing.

                              Kabische?
                              Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

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