Shaolin Forms

[Bungle]

Hi
I am re-reading barefoot zen. I don't know why i am so obsessed with this but i feel i need an answer, so weird. Anyway, a question occured to me. Why so many sets in shaolin kung fu?

Is shaolin kung fu designed for fighting and self defense? Yes, then why don't you test your sets to make sure they still work? Because you don't care. What do you care about? Practicing the shaolin tradition?

The shaolin tradition is to practice zen and part of this is moving meditation through sets. Why do you need to learn more than one set then? If they created martial arts to defend themselves it would come secondary to any zen training.
the real shaolin tradition is zen, not self defense. So why do you learn more than one set if you don't care about self defense?

IF you do care about self defense then then why do you not test your art out to make sure it is doing what it is designed to do? How else willl you know? How did they find out what worked? How do you know that info has been passed on properly without testing it? Sanshou? That's a sport and what about weapons? Sorry, if you want self defence you better know it is gonna work. Why do YOU need self defense anyway?

IF you dont want self defence then why more than one set? For the sake of it? Sake of what? Why do you practice shaolin anyway, i'm interested.. What is the difference between gymnastics done mindfully and current shaolin if you don't do it for self defense? Is it so you can dress up as a monk and live out an alter ego as a shaolin monk? Fitness? Go to the gym and be mindful. Why not just do wushu mindfully? If it is not for fitness, not for enlightenment, not for self defense and not for your alter ego then what is it for? Does it make you happy? Happiness starts in your mind, haven't you read about buddhism?

Ok, might seem like i'm going off on one. I'm not, never do and never will. I do however saying things un emphatically sometimes so please warn me. I'm getting more ammo as we speak. Back soon Oh and i'm a student so there is a lot of free time, i just finished my exams. As always, thanks for any replies.

[Xiaobeeno]

I was of the opinion that the monks also practiced gongfu (of which I believe sets/forms are an integral part) to develop discipline (physical and mental) that was required for their meditation. (I say required, perhaps saying that physical/mental discipline aided their meditation is a better way of phrasing it?)

P

[doc]

Well I certainly don't go into bars and pick fights with people just to see if the applications in this stuff works. That's kind of against my nature. But, if we look at this in the reverse, how do you know if karate techniques work? Do you go and test them in fights?

Another way of demonstrating this point: Do I care if my car will protect me in a collision? Yes. Am I going to test it...?

[pazman]

bungle,
yeah, i say you can turn anything into a zen activity. you can do wushu, or playing video games, or go beer drinking and still be mindful. but martial arts provides some other benefits. the discipline part was mentioned by xiaobeeno, and if you have ever practiced any form of yoga before, you'll know that control of the body, breath, and mind can lead to very deep and blissful meditation. also remember that yoga and meditation was brought into mainstream hinduism from forest hermits, ascetics, and warriors by way of buddhism. there's one thing about martial arts that is often neglected, however. if you think for a second....humans have been physcially fighting each other tooth and nail since the dawn of civilization. violence has always been a tool of our egos, and often an accepted and highly regarded method of gaining status in society...geez, just look at any world leader today. if we were talking about a human's original nature and if a person is 'inherently good' or 'inherently bad', i could point to history and say 'inherently bad.' now, i dont really believe that at all, but my view on original nature is a topic unto itself. but for the sake of this discussion, let's just say that violence happens way too much, so much that it almost seems natural. in tantric traditions, they see the experience of being a human as a chance to spiritualize what is material (the union of purusa and prakriti). with martial arts, a person is essentially ordering out a very chaotic and violent aspect of human nature. rather than surpressing tendancies, they are transforming tendancies, allowing a person to express all that is human in a creative and constructive manner.

now, for you other concerns. i guess shaolin has a lot of sets, but i doubt anyone actually needs all of them except for tradition purposes, so that some sets aren't lost. and let's get one thing straight....you don't more than one set to learn self defense. a good set should provide an ample amount of applications and drills for you to get good at. i 'know' about 40 sets from my years of martial arts training. are all of them useful? nope. do i practice them all? nope. a great deal of them are mearly training sets, meant for people just starting out. as for what i practice myself, there's only three i train on a daily basis, and its tough giving enough attention to just those. and yes, i agree that people should test their art, but not to make sure it works, but to make them train harder. and that's what things like san shou are for. i'll be the first admit that i hate competitions, especially in the US with lots of big egos and little kids crying and parents bitching for no reason. but a little competition is good...its puts you under the stress of 'the moment' and then it becomes an extremely zen experience. and, of course, you don't have to go to local bar and start stuff to 'test' your art!

[Bungle]

thanks a lot guys

[bhodi]

bare foot

Hi Bungle,

I am going to try and answer this to the best of my ability.

It is fine that you feel you need an answer. Some people have put up some good responses.

The main focus of the Shaolin arts is to practice Chan. No matter what they are doing. So when you say that anything could become a meditation you are correct.

You are making some assumptions about the practice and training of Shaolin Kung Fu that seem strange to me. You asked if SKF is for self defense or is it for Chan? Well it is for both. Not one or the other. It is just that Buddhism is the higher concern of the two. But if you ask a Shaolin Chan Master they will tell you that the one is inseparable from each other, Shaolin Chan and Shaolin Kung Fu are one. This is something that is very hard to see from the outside, but once you are involved in it it is very easy to see. Chan is the foundation for the teaching of Kung Fu. THe reasons mentioned above (discipline, health, tradition) are true and there are other reasons as well. THe mind is trained in Shaolin Kung Fu as well as the body. It really depends on your master of course, but my experience has been that there is philosophy that becomes evident through training. It is probably true that these things will be missed if your focus is not on Chan, but on martial arts. If that is the case then it is just a very intense martial arts class with great atmosphere and 'cool' costumes. But if you are focused on practicing Chan then it all becomes very sacred. The format of the class becomes a vehicle for teaching Chan, the way we are taught becomes a method of teaching Chan, the way we are encouraged becomes a lesson in Chan, the philosophy in each movement becomes apparent and so simple, you wonder why it was being filterred out of your conciousness before. You wonder why you never saw martial arts in this way before, or maybe you did and just didn't have a framework for putting it into a complete system of thought before. It was just some isolated understanding that hit you at a certain time because the conditions were right.

There are more than one set because there needs to be for developmental purposes. Self defense is just one reason for having alot of sets. THere are other reasons why there would be the same result. Besides here we are getting back to this mindset that there is one way or another way and never the two shall meet. Chan does not separate itself from things, it integrates itself with them. It does not cut things out of its definition. Chan is everything.

You wonder why Shaolin don't test their art. I am wondering why you think they don't test their arts? They do! But they don't just roam around looking for fights.... They don't just show up at dojo's and beat the pants off everyone inside in order to prove to themselves that they are amazing fighters. How would you suggest they test themselves? I bet they do all the things that you would come up with that are rational. Mostly they are tested just by trying to live their lives the way they believe.

How do the monks know what works and what doesn't? The history of Shaolin shows us that these forms and the combat sets came from somewhere. They were not just made up by people sitting around with nothing better to do. Many of the original contributors to Shaolin Martial arts were war generals before they were monks. THese guys knew that their martial arts worked. The first official warrior monks came to be when Fu Yoo became Abbot and he used to invite martial artists from all over to come to the temple and train. Many of these masters contributed to the Shaolin Arts. These guys were not monks. They were martial artists. There were competitions and challenges and all sorts of things that led to the 'survival of the fittest' effect that has always been involved in the evolution of Martial arts. Except now here was a guy who was setting this process up on purpose right in Shaolin Temple.

What is the difference between Gymnastics done mindfully and current shaolin if you don't do it for self defense? gymnastics is gymnastics, Kung fu is Kung fu. It is not as black and white as you are making it out to be. Here you are separating one thing from the other again and this is an attitude that will prevent you from understanding what is actually happening in Shaolin.

Is it about dressing up as a monk and satisfying some fantasy or alter ego? For some people it probably is. For others this could be part of its allure but not the sum total of it. For others this has nothing to do with it at all.

Does it make me happy? YES! I have read about buddhism and happiness. Does a relief from happiness only come when there is a relief from suffering? Take yourself out of that trap and you will see that it is all wonderful!!

everything you asked becomes very evident if you train under a Chan (Shaolin) master for any length of time.


Peace!
Amitabha!
Bhodi

[Bungle]

Thanks Bhodi. Sounds interesting. I look forward to one day experiencing the same thing. Good explanation.