Health risks of training at 16

[xing yi ba]

what risks are there to training in shaolin gong fu when you're still growing? i train at shaolin temple uk so the training is pretty intense with a heavy emphasis on san shou. i don't train more than 2 or 3 times a week but i'm at rooster level so there is a lot of pad work, heavy bag work, strength/power work and practicing sparring techniques with a partner. i know to keep within my limits but i frequently have sore joints after training that can last for a few days, especially knees and ankles. stiffness is no problem, i expect that, but i'm worried about what i might be doing to my joints in the long term and an injury is bad for anyone but at 16 it would be pretty devasting.
any advice/comments? anyone else in a similar situation?

[Lipster]

Hmm, why don’t you just ask Yanzi? He’ll probably be able to give you a more contextual answer as he should have some idea of where you’re up to…

But you should generally be okay; the teenage classes end at sixteen, so that must mean you should be able to absorb the regular ones. Just don't go over the top. That's kinda cool, rooster at sixteen...


peace

[doc]

Growth plate injuries

Human growth tends to be the responsibility of the epiphyseal plates, areas of cartliage which reside at the ends of most long bones. These areas continue to grow new cartilage, from birth, which, over time, expands the length of the bones (making the human taller), and, which eventually, ossifies (turns to bone by calcification). Growth plates tend to be found at both ends of the long bones in the human body.The ones that are found in the knee area are most responsible for human height.

There is variability as to when these growth plates complete their process of making cartilage, and eventually ossify (and "close"), thus causing the completed growth of the human. There can be a huge growth spurt during puberty, with boys sometimes gaining 3 to 5 inches in height during their pubertal spurt (usually, age 14 to 17). Girls tend to do this at a slightly earlier age, and tend not to grow as tall. The closure of these growth plates tends to occur in the late teens or early twenties. However, closure of the growth plates can occur at an earlier or later age; this is influenced by many factors, including nutrition, genetics, and hormonal factors. Fractures of these growth plate areas can cause early ossification, and thus, an early arrest of growth of that bone, with resulting shortness of the affected bone, and quite possibly, a difference between bone lengths.

The growth plate is the weakest area of the skeleton, in fact it is weaker than the surrounding ligaments and tendons. Injuries to a joint might not traumatize the joint as much as it traumatizes the surrounding growth plates. Most growth plate injuries occur at the lower end of the radius, near the wrist, but, some occur at the upper part of the tibia, or the lower part of the femur, when associated with knee trauma. Growth plate injuries do not occur only from falls or blows to certain areas of the body; overuse of a joint can result in growth plate injury and subsequent dysfunction. Marathon runners, and pitchers are two common examples of athletes who "overuse" their bodies, where growth plate injuries can occur.

The severity of the injury to the growth plate will dictate whether or not the growth plate will resume growth. Any injury that is improperly immobilized (ie, continued to be used), or that inhibits blood flow to the growth plate, can result in early ossification and subsequent loss of growth. The pattern of fracture lines through a growth plate will also dictate the severity of the injury; avulsion fractures of distal bone ends that traverse the growth plate, and compressive type injuries, which crush the growth plate, tend to result in more severe growth plate injury.

Care should be taken in the growing teenager with respect to growth plate injuries. They can be hard to diagnose, as they do not always show up on x ray. Any teenager with pain related to growth plate areas after injury should be carefully evaluated. Failure to properly treat growth plate injuries can result in improper bone growth and resultant unequal limb lengths.

Shaolin gong fu requires a lot of use of the legs, including twisting maneuvers. It would be not uncommon to see young individuals with knee injuries who train hard in this endeavor. Falls on outstretched hands can also result in distal radius fractures, that might involve the distal radial epiphysis. Care must be taken in the young who train in the martial arts to be wary of potential growth plate injuries.

[xing yi ba]

thanks lipster, doc, good advice.

lipster, i fully intend to talk to yanzi - just haven't been able to train this week cos of exams (the other health hazard at 16) i just wanted a western medical perspective which doc has supplied and then some. cheers doc, but i think i need to revise biology more before i understand exactly what you've said

[Maestro]

just

just take it easy, he outlined the points in your body that are responsible for growth, and how they are weak and need to be taken care of when your growing

you should know your own limits, theres a difference between working hard..and working real hard..and working so hard you hurt yourself

most people should know the difference..its your body were talkin about here, it should be pretty well known to you by now..

heheheheh

[juszczec]

xing yi ba

I seem to recall bones keep growing until a certain age. Until that age, regularly hitting a heavy bag should be avoided.

doc, what's the magic number?

I trained alot when I was 16, 7 days a week full blast.

The only reason I survived it was you heal quick at 16. Schedule at least one day off for yourself. Split your workouts like this

1 hard, 1 medium, 1 easy, 1 hard, 1 medium, 1 easy


Also, if anyone tells you to "train thru" an injury, ignore them. They don't know what they are talking about. Find a sport medicine dr or at least get your family dr to write a rx for physical therapy and listen to everything the physical therapists tell you.

I learned the hard way.

Mark

[Maestro]

hehe

i remember back in my judo days when my brother broke his collar bone sparring with some kid

when the senseii told him to walk it off..well that was that heheheh

"walk it off" if that isnt the dumbest thing anyone could ever say about an injury then im dr richard russel md

[juszczec]

Re: hehe

Originally posted by Maestro
i remember back in my judo days when my brother broke his collar bone sparring with some kid

when the senseii told him to walk it off..well that was that heheheh

"walk it off" if that isnt the dumbest thing anyone could ever say about an injury then im dr richard russel md

Mine is self inflicted. Training "around" injuries and not recognizing what's bad until it gets worse.

Mark

[doc]

doc, what's the magic number?

There's no magic number. When it comes to us humans, there's lots of variability. As I said in the post, females close their epiphyseal joints earlier then men, usually because they mature faster than us (ain't that the truth...). Some males will finish this growth spurt in their mid teens, some in their early twenties. Usually an x ray of the growth plates can tell when they're completely ossified, and thus, closed.

[xing yi ba]

thanks guys for all the advice. i certainly beggining to realise the effects of heavy bag training simce i can still feel it in my arms and wrists after a long session a week ago!

other than heavy bag training, is there anything else that i should specifically avoid? the other guys who train at shaolin temple uk know the sort of stuffy we do at rooster - there's a lot of emphasis on building strength and power and endurance, most of which is fine but i'm worried about the effect it has on my joints as i often feel sore fore several days after training especially around the knees and ankles. i know things like weight training are very bad for you when you are still growing - is it alright when most of the stuff i'm doing is only using my own bodyweight? i can go into more details of what is actually involved in the training but i expect it's the usual drill for shaolin and san shou

once again, thanks for all the help - it's really appreciated

[juszczec]

xing yi ba

Originally posted by xing yi ba
other than heavy bag training,

Make sure you hit focus mitts or an air shield if you drop the heavy bag. Focus mitts are probably better for you since they force you to hit a small target.

is there anything else that i should specifically avoid?

Getting too focused on your training. It leads to burn out. Getting into too much of a routine with your training. That leads to burn out as well.

Avoid not warming up and not stretching. Warm up and stretch even if its a light workout.

Start watching your diet now. It'll get you into the habit earlier. Which is a lot better than trying to change when you are an old man.

i'm worried about the effect it has on my joints as i often feel sore fore several days after training especially around the knees and ankles.

Can you describe the training that makes your knees and ankles hurt? Are you locking out kicks?

i know things like weight training are very bad for you when you are still growing

Really? I've heard the exact opposite-weight training contributes to injury prevention in young athletes. Now, I don't mean powerlifting. I mean low weight/high reps to strenghten the muscles supporting the joints and the core (shoulders, abs, back and hips).

I've been on a routine working the core for about 2 years and its done me a world of good. I've been weight training since 1990 and have nothing but good things to say about it.

- is it alright when most of the stuff i'm doing is only using my own bodyweight? i can go into more details of what is actually involved in the training but i expect it's the usual drill for shaolin and san shou

Please elaborate on the training.

San shou - full contact striking to the head and body. Be careful. Anything you injure now you'll have to live with for the rest of your life. Don't try to do it for a living. Do smart things like going to the dr when it hurts.

I'd avoid squats where your thighs go below parallel to the ground. Either with or without weight. Other than that, bodyweight exercises probably are safe.

One more thing to avoid - health advice from a karate guy

Seriously, most MA folks know about taking the body apart but very little about how to take care of it. Most of what I've posted has been my own experience. Doc - did I give any bad advice?

Mark

[doc]

It all sounds like good advice to me.

Now if only I can follow it... lol.

[xing yi ba]

thanks for taking the time to give some good advice, mark

Can you describe the training that makes your knees and ankles hurt? Are you locking out kicks?

i don't think i'm locking out kicks, but it's something i need to be more aware of. i'm not really sure what it is that causes the discomfort afterr training. i think it's just the intensity of a long workout that involves al lot of squats, jumps and other strength/power stuff and padwork and shadow boxing/kicking - either repeating one technique 15-20 times, shadow bxing for a couple of minutes or punch/kick combinations. as i'm fairly new to this level of training (rooster) i think it's just taken me a while to adapt and now my body seems much more able to deal with it. in terms of the sanshou training, full contact sparring isn't done at this level so no worries about getting beaten into pulp just yet!

mark, you mentioned the the good/bad effects of weight training. what i was talking about was lifting heavy weights which does all sorts of damage when you're still growing. you're probably right about lifting low weights with high reps - i've done some of this in school but i've always felt it was putting unnecessary strain on my joints. i guess it depends on the individuals body type etc.

nick

[shaolinstylee]

Avoid putting your knee in front of your toes when you do any type of squat.....
don't hyper extend (don't lock out for that matter) any of your joints when training... etc.

[juszczec]

xing yi ba

Originally posted by xing yi ba
thanks for taking the time to give some good advice, mark

No problem. If someone can learn from my mistakes then maybe they were worth making.

i think it's just the intensity of a long workout that involves al lot of squats, jumps

Are you making a big thud or hyperextending your knees when you land?

padwork

Do you hold pads for other people? Are they body shields or pads that fit on the hands?

as i'm fairly new to this level of training (rooster)

How new?

i think it's just taken me a while to adapt and now my body seems much more able to deal with it.

Does this mean the pain is gone?

in terms of the sanshou training, full contact sparring isn't done at this level so no worries about getting beaten into pulp just yet!

I'd be surprised if you go at it unprotected and full blast on an everyday basis. If you do, and can keep it up for
a long period of time, send me your conditioning routine

what i was talking about was lifting heavy weights which does all sorts of damage when you're still growing.

What percentage of your body weight are you talking about lifting?

i've done some of this in school but i've always felt it was putting unnecessary strain on my joints.

Did it hurt? Where? Were you using free weights or machines? Were you locking out your joints?

I didn't think of something until just now. Have you grown much taller recently? I had a growth spurt when I was 13 and wound up with Osgood Schlatter's disease. The bones grew faster than the soft tissue. Tendons are supposed to fit snugly in openings in the bone. When the fit wasn't snug, the tendon was started to irritate itself rubbing against the bone.

i guess it depends on the individuals body type etc.

True. But using this as a reason to early in the process can lead you to overlook something and make a minor injury worse.

Mark