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  • Sparring concepts

    Sparring for newbies...

    There's been lots of debate about the pros and cons of sparring in the martial arts, particularly at the earlier stages of martial arts development. It can be an inflammatory issue, so, this should be interesting.

    Proponents of early sparring state that this is the best way to improve timing, improve a student's ability to judge distance, and reduce fear of being hit. Proponents will also say that early sparring leads to better fighting ability later on in life.

    I say that early sparring makes one better at tapping an opponent.

    I had an email correspondence with an individual who trains primarily to spar and fight in competitions. He was wondering if learning some of the traditional forms in China would make him a better fighter. Well, that was a good question, one which I had to think about quite a bit. No, traditional forms will not make you a better fighter in something like the UFC, something where one steroid crazed muscle bound monster pummels and grapples with another. No, traditional forms certainly won't help there. But, given a real situation, where a non-sport fight is going to occur, will knowledge of the combat applications of the traditional forms help?

    I don't personally know. I don't fight. I've always been able to avoid the limited potential encounters I've been in, with my wits, and not my brawn.

    But, from watching the monks demonstrate the combat applications of these maneuvers, yes, they are effective. And yes, they end a fight pretty quickly, if done successfully. And yes, someone does get hurt. That's the purpose of some of these combat techniques, they tear ligaments, and break bones. Not exactly things that you'd want to do in a sparring match.

    There are many proponents of the "late sparring" concept, whereby students don't start sparring until they reach black belt or some other significant level, so that they are properly trained and accustomed to the actual techniques found within their system. I've seen too many sparring matches turn into technique limited "who can touch the other guy first" bouts. Great. That's gonna help you on the streets of New York.

    I've had long discussions about this with my Seidokan master, Eddy Schumacher, who basically has similar feelings about this as I do. In fact, he's aware of an actual study, in which some karate master followed a group of his students for many years. But he did something interesting. He took one subgroup, and started them sparring at yellow belt. He took another subgroup, and prohibited them from any sort of sparring at all, during their training, until they reached the level of black belt. What he found when both groups attained black belt level was interesting.

    The group that did not spar until they had really learned the techniques, ie, reached black belt level, did a far superior job of sparring, with far more perfect and effective technique, than the group of eventual black belts who had started sparring at a much earlier level. I'm not surprised.

    What this demonstrates, is, well, a few things. For one, kata training is an effective method of not only teaching techniques, but also teaching distance, speed, and accuracy. Also, early sparring might actually be detrimental, in that, it enforces movements which have not yet been adequately learned yet, thus reinforcing the use of sloppy and ineffective techniques in the later years.

    So, why do schools promote the use of sparring? Because students think it's neat and fun. And, because student's pay money, what student's want is generally good for a school's survival. Sad how sometimes, the worst schools make the most money, and the best masters seem to disappear into the wilderness.

    Chinese martial arts training kind of broaches this subject in an interesting way, if you really think about it. Gong fu, and its forms, traditional or otherwise, is the main emphasis. Explanation of techniques and combat applications within just does not happen; I was actually shocked the other day, when I was working with the Shaolin Temple Wushu Guan performance team, that they knew little traditional forms, and, virtually no applications of the combat techniques within. Shi De Cheng explains this away however, by stating that once a practitioner has practiced his form ten thousand times, he'll eventually figure out the combat applications. Well, since I'm fairly far away from ten thousand times with any form, I can't personally attest to this claim; besides, I've learned the combat applications directly from Shi De Cheng, thus saving me one hell of a lot of time, lol. No, combat applications are not generally taught in today's modern wushu schools. But emphasis on speed, power, and accuracy is high on the list, when teaching these wushu students forms. And, to watch them use some maneuver from some form, is, just incredible. Once they figure out what the maneuver does, no doubt, they will be able to use it effectively.

    But, the Chinese get around this sparring issue by also teaching Sanda, and teaching it separately from the gong fu forms. Sanda, basically boxing, is taught at an early age, as a separate skill. Yes, Sanda is derived from many of the traditional gong fu forms, but, that's not important. The strikes and kicks are taught as separate skills, then, they are practiced on bags and mats again and again and again, until their movements are perfected. Sparring does take place within the realm of sanda to teach spacing, resiliency, accuracy, and speed, but it does not seem to take place in the wushu forms part of the training. By keeping these as two separate skill areas, maybe they are doing something right.

    No doubt this is going to precipitate a whirlwind of shit. Bring it on.
    Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

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  • #2
    no I totally agree. Just that over here alot of places skip the san da part of the equation.
    "I'm like Tupac: Who can stop me?"

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Sparring concepts

      Doc

      Originally posted by doc
      Proponents of early sparring state that this is the best way to improve timing, improve a student's ability to judge distance, and reduce fear of being hit. Proponents will also say that early sparring leads to better fighting ability later on in life.
      Improve timing and ability to judge distance? Maybe. In my experience, sparring doesn't do these things for everyone.

      Reduce fear of getting hit? Change it to getting used to doing your thing to someone who will actively resist and I'll agree.

      I say that early sparring makes one better at tapping an opponent.
      It depends on how the teacher defines "success" in sparring. If you reward tapping an opponent, your students will get good at doing it. If you reward good strategy, correct performance of basic technique and good timing - your students will get good that that.

      One thing you can't do is just line them up and let them fight. You have to watch what they are doing and point out what they do that's good, bad, lucky, dangerous and so on. Making the folks who aren't sparring watch this so they hear the explanation is also helpful.

      traditional forms will not make you a better fighter in something like the UFC, something where one steroid crazed muscle bound monster pummels and grapples with another.
      Lets not bash those guys too hard. After all, they are alot bigger than us

      Plus, I don't want to see this thread devolve into another MMA vs TMA argument. I can find those wherever I want.

      I'm a karate guy, so I can't speak to kung fu forms. But, if you look at forms as collections of movements you can use to subdue someone else then they have some use in competition. Maybe not much, depending on the rules.

      But there is also an efficiency factor here. What you have to do to become a successful competitor is pretty well documented. Its much easier to learn the strategies and techniques applicable for your type of competition and train them to a high level of skill.

      It takes a long time to learn a form, figure out the applications, practice them and be able to apply them in a free form situation.

      But, given a real situation, where a non-sport fight is going to occur, will knowledge of the combat applications of the traditional forms help?
      Only if you can apply them. That means you need to have identified them in the form, figured out how to use them, figured out when using them is appropriate, trained them to a high degree of skill and then be able to do them in a high pressure situation.

      I don't personally know. I don't fight. I've always been able to avoid the limited potential encounters I've been in, with my wits, and not my brawn.
      I fight in training, in a controlled situation so when I screw up I don't get killed or injured. We use pads and other protective gear and the emphasis is on safety - especially mine. No its not the real thing, but its the best I can come up with since I'm not willing to risk my body to train full contact. Although, never say never, I might try full contact training at some point.

      There are alot of ways to improve this kind of drilling. Its up to me to incorporate those things. I'm working on it, at least in my own training.

      watching the monks demonstrate the combat applications of these maneuvers, yes, they are effective. And yes, they end a fight pretty quickly, if done successfully. And yes, someone does get hurt. That's the purpose of some of these combat techniques, they tear ligaments, and break bones. Not exactly things that you'd want to do in a sparring match.
      Although some techniques are too dangerous to do while sparring, the ways around this are only limited by your creativity. We can take sparring methods from combat sports.

      There are many proponents of the "late sparring" concept, whereby students don't start sparring until they reach black belt or some other significant level, so that they are properly trained and accustomed to the actual techniques found within their system.
      I think this depends on the student. Some folks are ok being thrown into the fray. Others aren't. I wasn't. My brother was. He got the hang of doing techniques against a resisting opponent faster than I did. I got there eventually.

      I've seen too many sparring matches turn into technique limited "who can touch the other guy first" bouts.
      This is the fault of the person running the show. I'll say it again, if a teacher rewards garbage technique then the students will develop garbage technique.

      I've had long discussions about this with my Seidokan master, Eddy Schumacher, who basically has similar feelings about this as I do. In fact, he's aware of an actual study, in which some karate master followed a group of his students for many years.
      Are there any notes or published results I can see?

      Is this the study Mas Oyama did in the 50's or 60's?

      What this demonstrates, is, well, a few things. For one, kata training is an effective method of not only teaching techniques, but also teaching distance, speed, and accuracy.
      Personally, I think kata is best at teaching you to think "out of the box." What can I do with this motion to hurt someone? How can this motion be used to prevent me from getting hurt.

      Its a great way to drill doing multiple techniques without the fear of getting hit. Its a good calisthenic exercise and provides some amount of conditioning. It contributes to speed (ie smooth movement) thru relaxation.

      Distance? I think you need another body in front of you to work on distance. Unless you are talking about 2 person forms.

      Accuracy? AFAIK, techniques in karate kata are delivered to fixed points. Changing these points is discouraged. Personally, I think accuracy is better improved by hitting small, moving targets.

      Also, early sparring might actually be detrimental, in that, it enforces movements which have not yet been adequately learned yet, thus reinforcing the use of sloppy and ineffective techniques in the later years.
      Absolutely. That's why you have to watch the students spar. Explain to them what they are doing and why it was good or bad.

      So, why do schools promote the use of sparring? Because students think it's neat and fun. And, because student's pay money, what student's want is generally good for a school's survival. Sad how sometimes, the worst schools make the most money, and the best masters seem to disappear into the wilderness.
      I don't know if its promote sparring or use it incorrectly.
      As far as the rest goes, well, the world has been like this since before you and I came around. No one said it was fair. I don't like it any more than you do.

      Chinese martial arts training kind of broaches this subject in an interesting way, if you really think about it. Gong fu, and its forms, traditional or otherwise, is the main emphasis. Explanation of techniques and combat applications within just does not happen;
      This is a cultural thing that doesn't translate to the West very well. We are encouraged and taught to ask questions. I've come to believe its unrealistic to ask people to stop doing this once they start MA training. I'd rather explain all the training methods up front, give them my view on kata and try to get them to start thinking "out of the box" from day one.

      Some get it, some don't. Good thing our dojo has other teachers with other approaches.

      But, the Chinese get around this sparring issue by also teaching Sanda, and teaching it separately from the gong fu forms
      snip

      By keeping these as two separate skill areas, maybe they are doing something right.
      Only if they integrate it all at the end and show how it fits together.

      Mark
      Karate/Jujutsu at Akron Shaw JCC

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Sparring concepts

        Originally posted by doc

        But, the Chinese get around this sparring issue by also teaching Sanda, and teaching it separately from the gong fu forms.
        By keeping these as two separate skill areas, maybe they are doing something right.
        The 2 skill areas should be integrated. The Japanese made the same separation. Karate sparring now looks nothing like kata. They can be, and are, taught as 2 different skills. Students and teachers don't see how they are related. Skill in one area doesn't translate to skill in the other.

        Mark
        Karate/Jujutsu at Akron Shaw JCC

        Comment


        • #5
          hmm, I've got a lot to say on this.. but I don't have too much time right now.

          What I will say now is I feal that two man drills, light sparring, working up to full contact is the way to go usually.... but there are always exceptions, etc..

          more to come.
          practice wu de

          Comment


          • #6
            Doc is Right!

            I agree 100% with Doc aswell. I have been training traditional shaolin forms for apprx. 1 year (personal one on one experience, Im very lucky to recieve this type of training in Toronto, Canada) I have not sparred with an opponent this entire time and at this stage I believe that it is benefiting me because I focus mainly on form and conditioning my balance, endurance, and breathing. This in turn I believe, will make me a smarter and better adversary for anyone that believe's fighting is the answer. (to many of these guys around lately!!!)

            This website is great and I have learned tremendously from the resources available. I thank everyone involved in this project.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Doc is Right!

              Originally posted by Narcotech
              I believe that it is benefiting me because I focus mainly on form and conditioning my balance, endurance, and breathing. This in turn I believe, will make me a smarter and better adversary
              1 on 1 training is a great opportunity. You'll make greater strides in a shorter period of time than you would if your teacher's attention was split between you and a dozen others.

              Also, I won't argue against improving balance, endurance and breathing. The better shape the body is in the better it can apply the physical techniques. In addition, being in good shape is just a plain old good idea.

              But it won't make you smarter at fighting. Intuition is gained by fighting lots of different people in controlled situations and studying the results.

              IMNSHO, you can't learn the mental aspect of fighting very well without fighting in a controlled situation.

              YMMV.

              Also, don't make the mistake that superior conditioning will make you unbeatable. If a fat, out of shape, sneak and viscious attacker hits you first and in the right spot it may give him other openings as you are reeling from the surprise.


              for anyone that believe's fighting is the answer. (to many of these guys around lately!!!)
              Unfortunately, you have to be able to respond to the lowest common denominator.

              Mark
              Karate/Jujutsu at Akron Shaw JCC

              Comment


              • #8
                My bad, smarter is not the word I should have used and probably wasn't even thinking that at the time. I agree that under controlled sparring my timing and coordination would improve quicker than without. And that I would learn from the experience of each different situation.

                At this moment in my training I would like to focus on the principles like rooting and body state. I am in the process of reading the Shaolin Collection and it is really intriguing me into developing without bounderies. I am not training to fight or to be able to kick some a** but to learn about myself and what my mind and body can accomplish when disciplined.

                If anyone could please inform me of some techniques or exercises that could develope rooting, yeilding, body state, etc. I would be extremely greatfull if not already.

                Thanks,

                Beaver (my real nickname) ;P

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Narcotech
                  My bad, smarter is not the word I should have used and probably wasn't even thinking that at the time.
                  No worries. I understood what you meant. All I'm saying is the training you are doing is great, but at some point you'll have to some kind of drill where you create on the spot responses to random attacks from a resisting opponent.


                  I am not training to fight or to be able to kick some a** but to learn about myself and what my mind and body can accomplish when disciplined.
                  Fair enough. But there is a fighting aspect to MA and you may become interestedin in it. You'll be shortchanging yourself if you think good technique is all you need to be able to hurt an attacker more than he hurts you.

                  Mark
                  Karate/Jujutsu at Akron Shaw JCC

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I understand you clearly Mark ... I decided not to long ago to start focusing on technique and proper form to prevent me from executing incorrectly and to make sure i dont develop bad habits.

                    There is plenty of contact within my training but no actual full paced sparring. Everything I do is done slow / slow and then gradually the speed is increased as my skills develop.

                    Do you train? How long? And what? I would like to know if you don't mind.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Narcotech
                      I understand you clearly Mark ... I decided not to long ago to start focusing on technique and proper form to prevent me from executing incorrectly and to make sure i dont develop bad habits.
                      Good. The better you perform the basic techniques and the fewer bad habits you develop, the better your result.

                      All I'm trying to warn you about is this. There can be a tendency among those who are very form conscious, to think that correct form is enough.

                      For me, it wasn't. One of my bigger problems was determining when to use any given technique and turn off the chatter in my head so I could really pay attention to what is going on.


                      There is plenty of contact within my training but no actual full paced sparring. Everything I do is done slow / slow and then gradually the speed is increased as my skills develop.
                      I hope you mean applying the techniques against a resisting opponent not, hitting each other hard.

                      There's a time and place for hitting each other hard, its not for everyone and shouldn't be overdone. I think its more important to do what you sound to be doing. Internalizing the movements and applying them in more and more intense situations.


                      Do you train? How long? And what? I would like to know if you don't mind.
                      Mind? Heck no, I don't mind. My shrink asks me more personal questions that those

                      Yes, I train. I've been doing karate for 22 years this month. I've cross trained a little in jujutsu and currently cross train in judo/Brazilian ju jutsu/throw them on the ground and cut off their air or lock their joints.

                      Mark
                      Karate/Jujutsu at Akron Shaw JCC

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Doc is Right!

                        Originally posted by Narcotech
                        I have been training traditional shaolin forms for apprx. 1 year (personal one on one experience, Im very lucky to recieve this type of training in Toronto, Canada)

                        Welcome, eh?! Where are you learning Shaolin? If you don't mind my asking.

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                        • #13
                          sparring dosent work

                          this is my opinion

                          hack away

                          DC

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by dogchow108
                            sparring dosent work

                            this is my opinion

                            Ummmmmm, are you gonna explain how you formed this opinion?

                            Mark
                            Karate/Jujutsu at Akron Shaw JCC

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                            • #15
                              I'd also be interested to know how you came to that
                              conclusion.

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