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  • thoughts on San Shou

    hey im a newbie on the forums so please don't flame, just wanted to give my thoughts and compare with others.
    background, i'm a 20 year old male, varsity taekwondo in college and i did fairly well in the National Wushu Championships here in the Philippines (current bronze medalist in san shou).

    san shou, which means "free fighting", in my opinion, cannot be used as a standard to gauge your fighting skill. for one, it has gloves. gloved hands are much easier to watch out for and block, simply because your fist becomes 4 times its size. certain holes in your opponent's defense where a fist might have passed through will become airtight because of the enlargement of your fist.

    two, because of the armor that the fighters wear. maybe it's just me, but i'd rather go into a fight without the helmet, not because i'm some sort of hero, but because the helmet disturbs and irritates me. this little bit of distraction can cost a fighter the match. the body armor is bloody hard. body blows are nonexistent, they just don't do any damage. in the semifinal round i must have landed clost to 20 kicks on my opponent's left and right side ribs, he just kept coming.

    oh another thing i noticed is that chinese martial arts focus greatly on the fingers, whether they are used to grab, hold, jab, etc., there is great importance placed on the mobility of the fingers. much more than in the closed fist, which is all you can use in competition san shou because of the afore-mentioned gloves. slaps are also widely used, another weapon that has been denied chinese martial artists in what is called "chinese free-fighting." the emphasis is on "free fighting." i mean, an eagle claw exponent would be at a loss in a san shou tournament; he can't use his fingers, which is what eagle claw is basec on. 70 % of listening jing that you learn in tai chi chuan is done through the palms and fingers, can't do that with gloves.

    i'm not criticizing (well maybe i am), but i would really like to know what other people think about this. it looks as if around half of the techniques found in chinese martial arts are useless in san shou because of the afore-mentioned factors. any thoughts? go easy on me, this is my first post

  • #2
    A lot of the techniques found in sanda are derived from various traditional gong fu forms from what I've seen so far, but, again I'm talking about sanda from the perspective of a non-expert. There seem to be far more combat applications in the traditional gong fu forms that you don't see used in sanda practice. I think it's just the nature of what's taught in sanda, versus what's taught in gong fu practice.

    With the use of gloves, as in Muay Thai, the use of some of the applications found in traditional gong fu becomes fairly useless. Without the use of your hands, many of the gong fu applications become undoable. Use of feet, however, remains possible, but, I'm not sure if sanda allows some of the stomping moves that you find in gong fu.
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    • #3
      From what I understand, since the origins of san shou in recent years, the people who actually run the san shou tournaments started with rediculous amounts of safety gear for fighters (and still do use all that in amateur competitions as you mentioned) but on the proffessional circuit they've been steadily removing the protective gear.

      Last I saw, in professional san shou competition the only safety gear fighters were wearing was a cup and a mouthguard (as for hand gear I cant remember if they were wearing wraps or light gloves, but they definately werent the standard gigantic boxing gloves).

      There are a few wing chun schools around and other schools of gongfu which practice this sort of sparring in the kwoon amongst senior students. You could probably find one if you're interested in doing some serious barehand sparring with just cup and mouthguard.

      Personally I always thought cups were silly in barehanded sparring, I mean dont get me wrong I'd appreciate the presence of a cup if I were kicked in the groin, but if you're training properly and your stance is good you should never give your opponent an oppurtunity to strike your groin. If you simply turn your lead foot in your stance so that it lies at a slight angle (30-45 degrees) to your opponent instead of being pointed straight at him, your groin is much less open to attack. And besides, striking gallbladder 23 or 24 (or both) near the inferior anterior edge of the the armpit is an easy counterpunch which can do alot more damage than any nutshot if you hit the cavities accurately and release jing properly.
      Show me a man who has forgotten words, so that I can have a word with him.

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      • #4
        Hello People

        I'm a big fan of Sanshou/sanda. For me it allows me to practice movements I've learnt in forms against an opponent who is trying to take my head off. The amount of protective gear is a bonus since it does limit the amount of injuries sustained in training and competition. As an amateur with a day job i can't risk my ribs or fracturing my shin. So personaly the padding is a bonus and trust me when I'm training against someone 10-15kgs heavier than I, it goes a long way. I agree that some traditional techniques cannot be used while wearing gloves but those can be practiced in ones spare time eg. chi na, open hand strikes, fingers. One big plus is the importance of wrestling in sanda. If you can't wrestle you can't do sanda.

        The chinese pro rules in 'Sanda Wang' only use gloves, box and mouth guard. And they've introduced the use of knees. These are the guys who take on Thailand in the 'Sanda vs Mauy Thai' that's held every once and awhile.

        WushuSpear

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        • #5
          protective gear does go a long way in making sure you don't get hurt, however i think that in professional competitions (nationals, etc), the gear should be limited. at least take the gloves off, how will the dragon claw, eagle claw, mantis boys match up to kickboxers if there are gloves? there goes 90% off their weapons. because of the gloves and the rules, sanda fighters are usually kickboxers or muay thai exponents who are taught how to shoot/throw.

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          • #6
            Hello

            I see your point but remember, nationals are still amateur. The athletes need certain amounts of protection. Also the gloves make it a equal starting point for everyone and removes the need for having rules like chi na and eye gouging etc.

            I disagree with the charecterisation that sanda fighters are mostly kickboxers or mauy thai giuys who are taught to throw. Sanshou has a very different approach to it fighting when compared to the other two arts, esp mauy thai. Sanshou uses the sidekick in a manner very different to the mauy thai side kick. Most sanshou fighters don't jab as much as kickboxers do. Believe me. Sanshou is a very CHINESE martial art and not some hybrid of various modern systems. I suggest you look at the Chinese athletes and how they train and not how the western athletes do it.

            WushuSpear

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            • #7
              wushu spear do you know where there are any video clips of chinese san shou fighters? i've also heard that there are san shou tournaments that have no protective gear except mouth guards... does anyone know where you can get clips of these events? my afore-mentioned thoughts on san shou are based on my experience in the nationals here in the philippines, haven't seen it done anywhere else, however i have clips of tournaments in other countries and they seem the same to me.

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              • #8
                Hello Mondog

                I don't know that many websites but http://crane.50megs.com/index.html might help.
                Most of the stuff I've got is on VCD as it is fairly widespread.
                Remember, sanshou amateur rules internatioanlly will be the same regardles of the country as the rules are standerdized by the IWUF. Professional events are another matter and rules are decided by whatever body is in charge in that country. Sanda Wang (Sanda King) in China uses only mouthpieces, gloves and box as their protection. It's proberbly the most competative sanshou in the world and those champions are the ones that China sends to take on the Thai.

                WushuSpear

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                • #9
                  Holy crap, I'm glad you told me about that site!!!

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                  • #10
                    You're most welcome. I was glad when I found it by chance. I've orderd a lot f VCD's from that guy

                    WushuSpear

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