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The meaning of "grandmaster"; "Bear" style, and more on Shaolin Do (again...)

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  • The meaning of "grandmaster"; "Bear" style, and more on Shaolin Do (again...)

    Hello Doc,
    My name is xxxxx. I guess you would call me a fan more than student of Shaolin training. I have trained somewhat in what I was told was bear style, but I have had to quit due to complications. I do still pursue the history of Shaolin until I can begin training again. I am having a bit of trouble finding the truth in all the muck basically, and I found your website refreshing. You are one of the very few who was smart enough to go to the source and you share your knowledge freely in a practical manor, and for that I salute you. But, I have a few questions that I was hoping you could enlighten me on. My first question is that my instructor taught me the bear style but I can't find any other information it. Do you know anything of this style or can you direct me to someone on the web who does? My second question: is there only one Shaolin Grandmaster or many? A coworker of mine, who was a student of Sin Kwang The's Shaolin Do group, says that Sin The was grandmaster over all Shaolin. It seems like I see a dozen new people on the web that claim to be a Shaolin grandmaster everyday. I'm am becoming greatly discouraged at the multitude of opinions on this subject. Can you please shed some light on these questions for me. I'm not looking to win an arguement or offend anyone. I am simply tired of fifty different versions of the truth and I am seeking valid, first-hand information which I believe you can provide. I certainly appreciate any information you offer. Thank you.
    xxxxx


    Great questions. I don't have not so great answers.

    First, bear style. Now, I must admit, I am certainly not all knowing about everything in Shaolin. I've been going there for the past eight years, I've gotten close with many of the older more traditional Shaolin monks, and I've learned a lot of Shaolin gong fu, despite the fact that, at least now, I can't do much of it. I've seen almost all of the styles that are taught there, and have learned bits and pieces of parts of them. And, there are many, many different styles. Lots of different weapon, hand, and animal forms.

    But I've never seen nor heard of bear style. There's eagle, leopard, tiger, frog, snake, dog, praying mantis, etc, but bear style, is, well, a new one on me.

    So, take that for what it's worth.

    Second, as for the Sin Kwang The Shaolin Do group, I know nothing about them. Know nothing about Sin Kwang The either. As for him being the "only grandmaster over Shaolin", I thought that honor, at least from what we hear in many of the US martial arts schools here, now belongs to some Americans. It seems to change from year to year.

    I think that if you use the SEARCH feature in both this and in the archive (especially the ARCHIVE: see button above), and search for the term "Kwang", you'll find all sorts of threads that discuss this system. I know nothing about it. I think you'll find the discussions to be lively and educational. Feel free to start a new thread in the appropriate part of this forum (Other Chinese Related Martial Arts), if you want to continue these discussions. You cannot continue discussions started in the ARCHIVE, it is for reference only now.

    Third, let's talk about what a grandmaster is. Or, at least, in the times of pre-Yongxin, was. There were four levels in Shaolin (and, at least at this time, there still are, as Shaolin has not yet decided to accept the nine level wushu certification that the Chinese government is bestowing upon people). The four levels were, student, disciple, master, grandmaster. You can find all sorts of information on each of these, in the site, using the SEARCH feature. Basically, a student is someone who shows desire to learn gong fu, finds a master, and trains with him or his coaches. A disciple, is someone who accepts a master, and who's master accepts him, after years of training and devotion, and takes the "Taking Refuge" vows. (again, SEARCH the site for Taking Refuge). The disciple level is not one to be taken lightly, it is a bond closer than father and son, or brother and brother. The master level is just that, after many years of training and teaching, one is elevated to master.

    Now grandmaster, is usually a term reserved for the much older monks (usually over sixty), who have actually trained the Shaolin masters. It is a highly revered position, one of honor, and almost semi-deity. At this point, there is one grandmaster who holds this position in Shaolin, and that is Shi Su Xi, who is now about 78, and suffering with Parkinson's Disease. He is well taken care of in Shaolin, constantly being attended to by the various monks in the temple. Just for your information, the older monks do not consider Shi Yongxin, the abbot, to be a grandmaster. Shi Xu Xi, one of the originals from the older days, was one of the monks responsible for training the newer monks in Shaolin gong fu, after the bizarre years of the Cultural Revolution. He, along with thirteen others, (Shi Su Yuan, my master's master, who died in 1999, was also one of these monks, and is considered to be a grandmaster of Shaolin), taught the new generation of monks that we currently deal with today.

    Shi De Cheng, my (and Shi Xing Wei's master), is not a grandmaster. Though, one day, when he's old (and when I'm really old), no doubt, with all the new and upcoming master to be's that he is currently teaching, one day will be considered to be, and revered as, a Shaolin grandmaster.

    Are you getting my drift here? Does this put the "grandmaster" nonsense that you see all over the web into perspective? You don't buy a Cardinalship, or become the Pope, in the Catholic Church that easily. It is a position which is earned over many, many years of teaching and devotion. It is a position of honor, of respect, of loyalty, of devotion. It is not something that you get for putting a memorial stone up in the Shaolin temple courtyard, or, by making huge donations to whatever cause. The term grandmaster means something.

    Or, at least, it used to.

    doc
    Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

    "You're just a jaded cynical mother****er...." Jeffpeg

    (more comments in my User Profile)
    russbo.com



  • #2
    and, at least at this time, there still are, as Shaolin has not yet decided to accept the nine level wushu certification that the Chinese government is bestowing upon people).
    I think they are proposing to instate there own duan system on top of Chinas duan system (sort of a parallel).


    As far as Shaolin Do.. there is oodles of debate on the internet about that group. They have there own forums (I think it is Master Mullen's site), cyberkwoon has had some posts, and kungfumagazine forums have some info.

    Google on Bear style kung fu...

    practice wu de

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    • #3
      Bear Style

      Here is the info on bear style.

      If you are interested in more of the rare animal styles, go to the book section of the site and look under Shaolin Literature. I posted a paper on Shaolin Animal styles there a while back.


      Here is the bear style info:


      THE BEAR (XIONG XING)
      In Chinese belief, the bear is a masculine symbol of yang, contrasting the snake's female yin. The constellation commonly known as the Big Dipper is still called the Big Bear in Asia and it's pattern is frequently carved into sword blades as the "seven stars". Once very common in China, today bears have been hunted to the brink of extinction because their paws are considered a delicacy and their gall is believed to be a potent medicinal. In reaction to this sad situation, Jackie Chan and Michelle Yeoh have been campaigning to bears and other wild animals as part of the Asian Conservation Awareness Program.

      The bear appears in Hua Tuo's five animal Qigong and Xingyi. As one might expect, bear style uses big, powerful upper body movements. Along with claw attacks, some schools deploy punches, elbow and shoulder strikes. Force is generated from the arms alone. Bear also emphasizes a strong neck posture. Instead of turning the head, the whole body moves so the spine is never twisted.



      Uwe

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      • #4
        I've got a bunch of monks coming to the house next week. I'll ask them if they know any "bear" style; this will be interesting. If so, I'll try to get some pictures or videos. If anyone will know it, Decheng will. But I've never seen him do it or mention it before. Might have gotten lost over the years. Someone remind me next week. I'll look into this.
        Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

        "You're just a jaded cynical mother****er...." Jeffpeg

        (more comments in my User Profile)
        russbo.com


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        • #5
          I spoke with Shi De Cheng about this "bear" style stuff.

          He laughed.

          According to him, there is no "bear" style in Shaolin. At least, not recently. And, for good reason. The bear is a fairly slow animal. It's not a good animal to mimic. (The bear relies upon strength, power, and mass, not speed, even though they can run fast, their fighting movements are not as quick as the other animals that are mimicked in Shaolin).

          Besides, the hand attacks that one would see with any sort of "bear" style, would be the same as in Hu Chuan (tiger).

          So, if anyone has any sort of proof that there is a Shaolin bear style, it would be nice to see. I think it's probably one those Japanese hybrid things, or southern China hybrid things, according to what I saw on that google search above.
          Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

          "You're just a jaded cynical mother****er...." Jeffpeg

          (more comments in my User Profile)
          russbo.com


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          • #6
            damn...I'm shattered...

            I was such a good Grandmaster until this post...I mean...I had all the qualifications. I walked past the stele forest and everything...I even lit a stick of incense in Thousand Buddha hall...I have pictures with me and monks...so what gives Doc...you gotta go and ruin it huh?

            I was making THOUSANDS...
            "Arhat, I am your father..."
            -the Dark Lord Cod

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            • #7
              Sorry man. But in my mind, you lost your grandmaster status when you got rid of the gold pants.
              Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

              "You're just a jaded cynical mother****er...." Jeffpeg

              (more comments in my User Profile)
              russbo.com


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              • #8
                You still got your horns man....
                practice wu de

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                • #9
                  Doc, I know someone practicing a sort of strange thing in kung-fu, he say it is shaolin but it I can assure you it is nor...even when I said it to him he didn't believe it but...so one day I asked to him to show me what he learned, he said ok and moved a little from me...he said: this is praying mantis, look but dont be afraid I will not touch you , (haha) he did a sort of mix between sanda karate and judo things hehe, next he begin something that was told to be bear style...even worst, I dont know if you ever saw a guy incarning a bear at the theatre but honestly it was the same thing.
                  I dont know if it is the bear style that is fakes or if it is because his training was, but believe me it was really really really not very efficient as a fighting methode.
                  martial way is mine, death one is yours
                  call me last bodyguard of the lohan chuan, call me the one who will bring wu de to occident, call me, the one

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                  • #10
                    Like everything else in life, beware the bull****.

                    Shame you didn't get a video of this guy doing whatever it was he was doing. Could have been interesting to watch.
                    Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

                    "You're just a jaded cynical mother****er...." Jeffpeg

                    (more comments in my User Profile)
                    russbo.com


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                    • #11
                      hmm, I could try to film him
                      martial way is mine, death one is yours
                      call me last bodyguard of the lohan chuan, call me the one who will bring wu de to occident, call me, the one

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                      • #12
                        shaolin disciple fei hung, where are you from? if in US, what state r u in?

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                        • #13
                          No not US, Europe
                          martial way is mine, death one is yours
                          call me last bodyguard of the lohan chuan, call me the one who will bring wu de to occident, call me, the one

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                          • #14
                            snarf...

                            cuz i studied under someone just like that once here in the US

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                            • #15
                              you mean the guy doing these strange forms ?
                              martial way is mine, death one is yours
                              call me last bodyguard of the lohan chuan, call me the one who will bring wu de to occident, call me, the one

                              Comment

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