on the training of forms

[dogchow108]

OK, so I've been giving a lot of thought to this since we had the “transition towards wushu” thread.

I said, on that thread, that I think forms have damaged traditional martial arts more than guns have. I stick by that statement, and really, please don’t ask about this here since it really was discussed pretty deeply in the “transition towards wushu” thread.

Having said that, I really want to make the point that I don’t think forms have no point or place. Quite to the contrary, I am actually quite a big form person, and I think that they serve purposes that reach far beyond just martial training.

My main idea is that even though some people may have good ideas (of course, there can be many) about how to utilize forms, it appears to me that most of the time invested in doing so is just the constant repetition or the sequences from start to finish. I understand that forms can teach you how to move, and that you can imagine attacking an assailant as you go through them, but when you do this by going from start to finish, I would say you miss out over half of the teaching potential the form has to offer. I guess what I want to do here is present some good, specific examples for my point.

Here’s an example. And really, keep in mind this is MY example- as I said there are probably many ways to do this but I find this most pertinent to my point.

I am currently learning an old Chen Taiji form, Xiao Jia (FYI: as far as I have learned, “New” and “Small” frame are not synonymous with each other as I have seen hinted before). I’m using the example of Chen Taiji because generally, from what I have seen, they are all very similar. At any rate, let’s look at the first couple of movements; from the beginning where the arms raise up and deflect to the right, step out with left leg, sweep down with arms, repel forward with left arm, scoop with right arm/leg into pounding mortar. Now, right off the bat, there are at least four or five applications that I have so far, early on, been drilled on JUST FOR THAT SECTION. And guess what…each of these requires different stepping, different balance, different arm usage and anywhere from slightly to completely different direction/facing. So, what does this mean? basically, if you just do that section and then go on in the form, you’ve lost. You really have lost a lot of potential. What is better to do is to repeat that section several times, with a little variation, and keep in mind that different applications require different motions. If you just jump through it once and think “okay, I remember that this and that application was there” that is ok, but it wont help you as much because the whole point in martial arts training is crossing the line between theory and practice, isn’t it? The same goes for just about any such section in a form. also, keep in mind that these ‘sections’ aren’t jumps from black straight to white…these are transitions; there are shades in between- I use the “section” example here to illustrate a...I guess…“blob” of the form to focus on.

Keep in mind, also, that this kind of training with a PARTNER will help you even more. Also, keep in mind that I have not even talked yet about mixing around moves from different sections; wow talk about a whole different dimension. This is extremely important, especially when you consider that the form does not combine all the moves in all the possible ways and that the transitions between moves can be just as if not more important than most of the postures themselves.

I think that people tend to get caught up with wanting to do the whole form all the way through…that’s okay, there’s nothing wrong with it; I do it a lot just because it’s fun to do and I enjoy it- but if it is martial training you are after, do this as maybe a warm-up or a cool-down. It takes me roughly 20 minutes to go through Da Hong Chuen for this very reason…and I’m not even done learning it yet!
There’s also a limit to how much you can just train a form for learning “movement” before you start to forget other ways it can be useful. I will only take the excuse of “I’m repeating because I just learned it” to a certain degree. Guys, if you have to do your form over and over because you just learned it and are hanging by the skin of your memory’s teeth, chances are you just learned it WAY too fast. This is dangerous because it might water down the content of your form. My best example of this is the little bit of cannon fist that I know. I was taught this at a seminar this last summer from Shi De Shan. We didn’t do the whole form, and I don’t think we should have given the time we had. We didn’t get to do application, but I remember the form in pretty good detail because it wasn’t too much to swallow and I didn’t have to do it a million times to remember it. If we had learned the whole thing, I am SURE I would have forgotten the stuff by now. In fact, I also did the Eagle Claw seminar with Shi Yan Feng and I barely remember anything because I had done it after the Cannon Fist one. Again, learning too much at once is usually the reason/cause for people doing forms just for the sake of not forgetting them. Eventually this may become the sole purpose for repetition, and the practitioner never really gets to the point of dissecting the form for content. I even think that learning as much of cannon fist as I had was risking the quality of my retention- I did do it over and over again maybe for the first day or two, but after a wile you really need to then start to make the transition over to practice rather than memory.

What I wrote above here is what I think causes many people’s prejudices against forms, and thus the reference to forms as “dancing”. Some people have been jaded by forms to the point where they completely reject form practice- they just do it in class because they are told to and then proceed to just drill and drill and drill. Some people just like to spar and spar and spar--- I disagree with the mainstream view that sparring is essential to martial training, but hey that’s just an opinion and a totally different story.

Bottom line of this example:

Assuming that you are training for martial skill, forms are not useless. I believe I have given sufficient argument to support this, but I think that there’s a certain way to go by using and REALLY benefiting from them. If you just do forms and forms, start to finish, that’s not good (unless you are at the point where you are first learning the form- and even then, that’s tricky). If you do forms in the generic start to finish way and then also do sparring or drills- don’t even waste your time doing the form unless you just want to have the form as a kind of…well…toy. If you really want to gain from form practice, do it right—more than likely it wont be as fun as just performing the forms at first, but it really does become interesting once you see the use in it.


Anyway, lets move from martial training. Let’s look at forms as a historical tool- in my example, lineage tracing. I’ll use Xiao Hong Chuen as an example. I have never learned Xiao Hong Chuen from a teacher, but I have been fortunate enough to come across documents, clips and have seen Shi De Shan perform the form a couple of times- enough to tell that the moves are similar, but that the actual sequence (order of moves) is quite different from the apparently mainstream version I've seen to that point.

***I know that there is another “old” version of Da Hong Chuen in the slideshows section, but as you will see this “new” version of DHC has been around for quite a while***

I've seen this also with the Da Hong Chuen (DHC) that most people are familiar with- the one that’s in the video section of this forum. I also have another clip of an older man doing this form, and I have a VCD of the form as well. The version I’m learning from my teacher seems to have more detail in it, and it goes in a “T” rather than in the two-direction fashion that I have seen done elsewhere. My teacher learned this form from a few different sources (people) in china at around the late 1980’s. The really interesting thing about the DHC I’m currently learning is that it has a lineage outside the temple- you might be surprised to know this, but many Bagua and XingYi practitioners know a version of this form- each of them do it in a way that typifies their style, the version I know is complementary to Cheng Ting Hua Bagua, and is VERY fast-wrestling oriented. Having circulated outside the Shaolin temple for a while, this form has many versions, and I wouldn’t be surprised if some of these forms have more detail and are more powerful than the original version.

This is interesting for anyone who is interested in the history and happenings of what's going on with these actual techniques. Though there does appear to be some transition towards wushu in the temple, the exact opposite is happening elsewhere with other masters- for example, if my teacher sees me jump or anything that resembles jumping or more than subtle hopping during DHC, his response is either a disappointed smirk/frown or the more frequent “yea, and that would be the, uh, wu-su, uh-hum, yea…” (he really is a funny little guy, says a lot by saying very little).

Another function of this is that you can, quite frankly, call a teacher on his **** when he tries to sell you something fake. Where I live, there is no shortage of these types of people—I know because I have studied under two of the probably worst of these in my city or its area. One of them claimed to teach Hong Jia (hung gar), Wu Taiji and Wing Chun. The other…holy **** where do I start…Shantung (XiangDong) tiger, two different types of ninjitsu (a joke my friend made is that he must have just CLEP’d out of them), Northern Shaolin (if this isn’t ambiguous enough then…), Southern Shaolin (@#$!!???? And for those who read the thread…yea maybe this is where that “bear form” came from cuz he had one, along with a drunken leopard form), Wing Chun (seeing a pattern?), Kenpo, White Lotus (seriously, now that’s ridiculous), Wen (what, where, why, who…) style Taiji which was conveniently impossible to find any info on. And of course, in addition to all this, Choy Lay Fut. In case I have painted the wrong picture, no this guy was not a big, hovering brain.
Now, I wont even mention the GARB this guy fed us about his “masters”. My point about forms as a lineage tool can come in handy here. I’ll give examples for the Northern Shaolin he was supposedly talking about.

There are two well-known and widely practiced “northern” Shaolin systems out there today. One is the temple system, the basic forms of which we are probably all fairly familiar with: Xiao/Da Hong Chuen, Tong Bei Chuen, and sometimes depending on the teacher they might teach you the probably wushu-inspired yet still kind of useful wu-bu-chuen. The other system is the one with 12 tan-tui sets and ten core forms (examples: Koy Moon, Tun Da, Moi-I, etc). The interesting thing about this second system is that the nomenclature is often taught in southern China’s CANTONESE dialect- this should be no surprise to lineage tracers or historians since the system migrated south from the temple and then dispersed from there. But basically, the forms my teacher taught…wow were they different…he taught ONLY animals forms to beginners, and the forms were just…I dunno man if I ever see any of you guys ask me for a demo you’ll see right away what I’m talking about.

Here’s the thing though, his “southern shaolin system” included a Mui Fa form….which actually after watching it several times, I realized that this form was done in Jet Li’s Fist of Legend--- ironically that movie is about the Jing Woo School in Shanghai--- today, the offshoots of this school practice NORTHERN SHAOLIN.

Also, his “southern dragon” form… the only thing I have ever seen that resembles this form is this clip right here… http://www.kungfuschool.com/Videogallery.htm it is the bottom left one.

In fact…it doesn’t just resemble it….those are the moves in that order, but the directions are different and in this clip, you are watching a “crane and tiger” form out of a king of kung-fu empire that is run by a certain Sifu Glenn C. Wilson. Even if my teacher learned from this guy (which he doesn’t claim to), I tend not to trust these dudes with giant kung-fu empires in the first place.

Bottom line of this example:

So that’s some info on how forms can be helpful as far as history and lineage. You can sometimes tell who a person learned his martial arts from, or you can tell if someone is trying to con you.

The use of forms in such a way is helpful both for the practitioner and the forms themselves. Really, if you use your forms in this way (which as I said exceeds mere physical training), you are more likely to use the forms in what I think is a very real-life situation. When you think about it, all the hours of training usually wind up being used for a few seconds to never at all for most people. Here, you can utilize your forms, use them more frequently, and also do so to promote a non-violent positive purpose.

FINALLY, the last topic- health. And really, I wont touch this too much because almost anyone who has practiced forms to any extent in a proper way will testify that they move your body in ways that we grow to neglect, they can be a good aerobic exercise and also a strength-building one, and can provide, as has been mentioned on this forum, meditation purposes- a concept with which I have always supported and agree with.

Anyway, that’s it guys I hope this helps; have fun with ti and please give any feedback, and I plan on posting this also on Shaolinwolf to get feedback there.

-DoGcHoW108

[doc]

My main idea is that even though some people may have good ideas (of course, there can be many) about how to utilize forms, it appears to me that most of the time invested in doing so is just the constant repetition or the sequences from start to finish.

That's why we do forms.

To make the movements, with all their obvious and hidden applications, second nature, fluid, powerful, and perfect. So they can be used.

Also, in my opinion, they help build up flexibility, strength, and the cardiovascular system.

And, most important, as I see it, it's a great method of meditation. It's also a great mind buidling method; causing one to increase concentration, focus, and memory usage.

[dogchow108]

true. and as i said, they serve not only a martial service... but for martial purposes you need to chop them apart and really look at the peices under a magnifying glass to get martial usefulness from them...a fight wont happen in the order a form goes....well it could but man that owuld be a coincidence...better to make the APPLICATIONS second nature, not necessarily the form, no?

[doc]

But ifr you make the form second nature, the bits and pieces of it become second nature too. That's the point. And as Decheng says, if you do the form 10,000 times, you figure out the applications. True, nobody fights within the confines of a form. But, if you know the form, and the parts of the form, you eventually learn to use the bits and pieces of it, and its applications.

A good teacher, who really knows the form, can show you the applications of all the various parts of it. Which is why I like learning from Decheng. He teaches me all the little subtle nuances of these forms. And some of them are very "hidden" indeed. I would have never figured them out. Which is what makes Shaolin so beautiful in my mind.

[dogchow108]

doc, i agree with you. in a way this is what i'm saying. but when you actually go and practice this stuff, actually DO the material, is it not more beneficial to dissect the form bit by bit rather than just run through it?

i just think that when you get used to doing the thing uninterrupted start to finish, its easy to lose focus and end up at the end of the form before you even realize you have gone through it.

[dogchow108]

of course, there may be some kind of traditional way of approaching the practice of the form....as far as shaolin temple martial arts, i am unfamiliar with the approach since i dont have such a teacher.

[doc]

If you watch the way the monks and the students in Shaolin practice their forms, they do it in pieces. Rarely will you find students going through the entire form. You can practice the entire form to remember it, for endurance, and for meditation; you can do sections here and there, to speed up and perfect each move. It all depends upon what you want to do. I look at a form as a structure of many moves, each with many different applications.

[dogchow108]

Originally posted by doc
If you watch the way the monks and the students in Shaolin practice their forms, they do it in pieces. Rarely will you find students going through the entire form. You can practice the entire form to remember it, for endurance, and for meditation; you can do sections here and there, to speed up and perfect each move. It all depends upon what you want to do. I look at a form as a structure of many moves, each with many different applications.

oh. well thats goof then. cuz most other places/ppl ive seen or talked to dont do this kind of thing. but then, thats what i get for living in Oklahoma in the first place isnt it?

[daodejing]

Oklahoma? You poor bastard. Well its better than texas I suppose (unless you train with monks there).

I tend to agree with both of you on certain aspects of forms. I think that they are incredibly useful, but that many students become trapped by the form and never transcend it. As far as reasons to continually practice a form over again, I do repeated practice of the yang style taijiquan long form for two reasons. The first is to cultivate qi. The second is to forget the form. My old sensei best described the process of learning martial arts in saying that "first you practice until you learn the technique. Once you learn the technique, you practice until you forget the technique. Then when you find yourself in an oppurtunity to use the technique, it will just happen."

[dogchow108]

Originally posted by daodejing
Oklahoma? You poor bastard. Well its better than texas I suppose (unless you train with monks there).

I tend to agree with both of you on certain aspects of forms. I think that they are incredibly useful, but that many students become trapped by the form and never transcend it. As far as reasons to continually practice a form over again, I do repeated practice of the yang style taijiquan long form for two reasons. The first is to cultivate qi. The second is to forget the form. My old sensei best described the process of learning martial arts in saying that "first you practice until you learn the technique. Once you learn the technique, you practice until you forget the technique. Then when you find yourself in an oppurtunity to use the technique, it will just happen."

wow thats a cool way of seeing it. im also practicing yang short form...but i really learned that form from a friend out of curiosity as to what Yang feels like. i guess that other than warm-up i would do a form just from start to finish just because its fun and different forms feel different. on that note, im enjoying Xiao Jia much more than the 24-form, but im sure that when they call it "simplified" its for a good reason.


by the way on my last post...you guys know i meant to say "that's GOOD" right? dont want people thinking i learned to say goof here in Oklahoma....man i want out of here. Actually i'd love to live in Texas...other than the monks, i just liked living in Houston waaaay better than living in OKC.

[doc]

Oklahoma?

Is that in the US?

[dogchow108]

You'd almost think it wasnt if you lived here!


naah, just kidding its really not that bad here of you ignore the fact that people seem to be kinda dumb...er...oblivious...actually i cant erally describe it, you should come see it sometime (NOT). stuff's cheap...thats a plus.

the good thing is i have found some teachers that i am interested in learning from and for now thats good; till i start seriously planning to go to China and Taiwan.

[doc]

I drove through Oklahoma once. Just once.

Thankfully...

[pazman]

forms.....hmmm....i'm not sure i agree one can learn how to fight just by doing forms, the again, nobody really claims that (well, at least i hope not). they definately have their time and place. for teaching children to move dynamically and with power and posture, forms, from my experience are indespensible. most children are just too young and soft to spar with much contact, and many are too uncoordinated and unathletic to just drop into the middle of a grappling game. when i was growing up a great deal of my training was spent on forms. of course, nowadays, i've grown out of that...i need live and full force training against an opponent, but i'm sure as hell thankful for all of my form training from when i was younger, and i still keep it as a part of my daily regimen. but for all martial artists, there's gotta be a time when the training starts move from the coodination phase to the free play phase...it's just knowing when and how to switch (given an individual's circumstance and outlook) that makes it such a difficult transition.

[daodejing]

Hmmm, I must be messed up then. I started with being instructed in falling, followed by grappling techniques and lots of freeplay.

Only now am I moving from freeplay into coordinated forms. And most of the "form" work I do is improvisational practice of basic techniques strung toghether as the techniques please.

So i suppose I started with freeplay and am now moving into coordination.

As for little kids and the grappling game.... you'd be surprised. There were quite a few 11 year old national champions in my judo club. My best learning experiences were wrestling Sensei Egnor when I was a little kid and he was in his sixties. That guy was tough as a coffin nail and could probably have run a marathon if he felt like it. Most athletic senior citizen I've ever known.

Oh well. Internal to external, external to internal. The training is different, the training principle is the same.