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  • #16
    most of those 100,000 are regular people. Women and children, not terrorists. 1,100 is a lot. Why don't you go to baghadad if it's so great and everyone is so free. How about fallujah? Of course I would want Bush as the presdient if I was a terrorist because he's a total moron who couldn't find Osama in a white House game of hide and seek. granted it's a huge house.

    "If so how lazy could you be not to?"

    yeah exactly grammar master
    "I'm like Tupac: Who can stop me?"

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    • #17
      Ok you win I'll vote for Kerry.

      Who would have thunk it.

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      • #18
        How do you know most are women and children? No puppy dogs or fuzzy bunny rabbits?

        Comment


        • #19
          A new independent, peer-reviewed study has concluded that at least 100,000 Iraqi civilians have died because of the U.S invasion last year.
          The study entitled "Mortality Before And After The 2003 Invasion of Iraq: A Cluster Sample Survey" appears in Britain's foremost medical journal "The Lancet" and was conducted by researchers at Columbia University, Johns Hopkins and Al-Mustansiriya in Baghdad.

          The estimated number of deaths of 100,000 is considerably higher than previous estimates. The study found the rise in the death rate was mainly due to violence and much of it was caused by U.S. air strikes on towns and cities. Most of the victims were women and children.
          "I'm like Tupac: Who can stop me?"

          Comment


          • #20
            Lester-

            i couldn't help but find a few things in your posts that were kind of funny (to say it nicely).

            First of all, Al Quaeda barely EVER talked of Israel before 9/11, much less before Bush was elected. One of the biggest victories the Muslim world has had in brainwashing Westerners is that they have convinced them they thet are fighting a fight that they are not really fighting. The only reason Israel is so unique in the west vs Islamofanatic war is that we have been the first to tell them to take their bull**** and shove it up their ****s. The other major success the Muslim world has had in this brings me to my second point about your posts.

            If I were a terrorist, i would give up half my heaven-virgins to see Kerry elected. Considering what happened in Spain right before their elections, i would imagine you are either insincere or undereducated about how terrorism operates when you tell me that terrorists would rather see Bush elected. When the terrorists do things that are illegal, the next step is to make the things legal by taking advantage of a very liberal (which i am proud of but am disgusted at how it is being used) set of international laws. Having the US elect a President who seeks to become a puppet of the UN will be another step in accomplishing just such a goal.

            Really, i'll get back to the point i was getting at in my last post, because it really seems that you guys actually DONT get it. We are not going to get attacked by fundamentalists. It is not a question of whether we can avoid living under international Sharia law. When people in the western world do something that Muslim world dosent like, we get it up the ass from them. True, we retaliate (most brutally as we should yet, in the case of Iraq, I think perhaps unwisely) but the difference between us and them is that we do not pretend to be living by their laws. We ALREADY HAVE LOST.

            The "Palestinian" cause and the general onslaught of the Arab world against Israel is one of the best examples of this, where a people with the clear goal of destroying Israel and replacing it with another Islamo-Fascist and totalitarian state dont use THEIR legal system to get what they want, they use OURS. They, along with the Arab/muslim world at large, are unmatchedly the most disgusting abusers of human rights to ever exist. their manipulation of children, killing of civillians (our and theirs), methods of brainwashing, attempts AND successes in ethnic cleansing throughout their history and also recently, the list goes on. THESE people hind behind curtains of "human rights" and "peace". We kill terrorists, they get a resolution passed in the UN condemning the action. They blow up dosens of kids in a discoteque, not a goddamn thing happens. Think about the fact that since its inception, the UN has voted FOR a jewish cause barely a hair over thrice. Yet, out of a body of nearly 200 countries, Israel has been stabbed with an overwhelming 30% of all UN resolutions. And they aint pretty ones, ladies and gentlemen. China? Syria? Saudi Arabia? ANYONE? Lybia is the head of the Human Rights Committee. I dont know whether to laugh or to cry.

            And that's just a SPECK of the UN and Israel.

            More close to home for you Americans, the illegal and out-of-duristiction ruling of the IC"J" which declares Israel's anti-terror barrier illegal also has a clause in it which strongly suggests that the war in Afghanistan and Iraq is illegal.
            Still on America, have you guys ever heard of CAIR? the Council on American Islamic Relations, a "civil rights" group which has openly declared its will to see the constitution of America replaced with the Quran.

            We are not in trouble, guys, we are already ****ED. Whether its our fault or not, we are in trouble because we already live at the mercy of Islamic terrorist killers. With all due to respect to the vast majority of the muslim world, who do not actively aid the killing, it is simply a fact that we are all ****ed. It is just a matter of whether we make it out of it. And just for the record, the OVERWHELMING majority of muslims i talk to hate Israel and feel about the same about American government.

            It is no co-incidence that much of the UN, a body of nations dedicated to upholding the values of human rights, liberty, and justice, nas become overrun by dictatorships. What the hell are Syria (and Syrian-controlled Lebanon), Saudi Arabia, Lybia, China, and a horde of the Human-Rights violators Elite doing making decisions in such a place? Again, it is no co-incidence, guys.

            This is what i mean, in a VERY short, and oversimplified version of my views. I understand where a lot of you guys are coming from- i am a Liberal. I am Pro-Choice, i am against prayer in school, i dont want my money going to religious schools of any kind. I dont want to jail doctors who assist suicide, i want stem-cell research to continue. I want people to be seen and treated as equals, without apartheid-style segregation and hateful incitement. I want tolerance and Peace. I am non-theistic.

            The fact is that things have turned ugly. people have hijacked the causes of equality and human rights and are now using it to aid its worse offenders. I am a liberal and a leftist, and it is EXACTLY FOR THAT REASON that i am bro-Bush and pro-Israel. though to be honest i think that neither candidate is a very good one. You think we have intruded some kind of enlightened, exotic culture? If you guys think the American government is corrupt and Orwellian, you wont know what the hell hit you once you start living under Sharia Law.

            Oh, and Mortal, you're a nutjob.
            Last edited by dogchow108; 11-02-2004, 03:14 AM.

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            • #21
              Beware what you read in medical journals, lol.

              I think it really doesn't matter who is president. Or, what Bush did or didn't do. Going to war in Iraq is irrelevant, as is who wins the presidency later today. The issue is a far greater one, one which has been simmering for many, many years. And now, it's starting to boil.

              It wasn't noticeable during the Clinton years, because he did everything to shove it under the carpet, even to the point of decimating our intelligence agencies and avoiding the issues. But, the issues weren't going away, they were building up.

              It's components of Islam against the rest of the world. The extremists are making themselves known now. The problem is, it's easy for the non-extremists to become extremists. It's going to get worse. I can see it here in Thailand, in the heavily populated Muslim south. I can see it here in Phuket occasionally, with a difference.

              The Muslim businessmen who have businesses, and work, and hope, have no problem with Americans.

              The ones who have nothing, do.


              As I've said before, conflict basically boils down to the "haves and the have nots".

              We're dealing with a lot of "have nots".... Look at Palestine, the root of a lot of the terrorism problems over the past fifty years (worldwide). (And the French take Arafat in, one of the biggest terrorists in the world). Look at Iraq. Look at southern Thailand. The western regions of China. These people have little. But, they do have their religion, which they devote many hours a day to.

              Instead of productive work to better their lives.
              Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

              "You're just a jaded cynical mother****er...." Jeffpeg

              (more comments in my User Profile)
              russbo.com


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              • #22
                I was looking for land here in Phuket on which to build the new school. Was looking at a few acres in a Muslim community, owned by an uncle of a Thai friend of mine, near the beach. Some Muslim on a scooter, whom none of us knew, drove up to us and told my Thai friend, in Thai, not to sell land to the Americans. All the while, he was smiling at me. Of course, I was smiling at him back, not knowing at the time that he basically didn't like me.

                All because I was an American. An American, who, ironically, was looking for a place to start an international Shaolin/Muay Thai martial arts training center for people who have little financial resources to train.

                Sad. We're moving into a new world.
                Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

                "You're just a jaded cynical mother****er...." Jeffpeg

                (more comments in my User Profile)
                russbo.com


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                • #23
                  Originally posted by dogchow108
                  Oh, and Mortal, you're a nutjob.
                  Best line of the whole post.
                  I do not have a psychiatrist and I do not want one, for the simple reason that if he listened to me long enough, he might become disturbed.
                  "Life can keep providing the rain and I'll keep providing the parade."
                  "I would just like to say that after all these years of heavy drinking, bright lights and late nights, I still don't need glasses. I drink right out of the bottle."
                  "Whatever guy said that money don't buy you pleasure didn't know where to go shopping"

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                  • #24
                    dogchow... that post was all over the place. nobody, not the UN, not anyone, is saying that it's "legal" to blow up a train full of people in spain or a disco in israel. they deal with organizations like the PLO as a representing body for the terrorists who are doing these things. everybody knows organizations like that have links to terrorism; otherwise, there would be no reason to deal with them. the same way the british government deals with representatives of the NRA in ireland. that's not condoning terrorism or making anything "legal", that's just an attempt (a bad one, in my mind, but an attempt) at some resolution of the problem.

                    doc seems to think that the problem is that some people "have" and some people "have not". only that's been the case for as long as human history, and there's nothing really to do about that. what can be dealt with is the practice of terrorism. for terrorism to work, it takes real networks, real masterminds and real money, and these are things which we can find and shut down. and since terrorism works across borders, we need all kinds of cooperation from our allies to bring it down, which is something i agree on kerry on. i also think that locking down iraq would be a tremendous step, but since neither candidate seems willing to commit to that, i guess it's not gonna happen.

                    anyway, back to dealing with the PLO and such... i don't think it's ever a bad idea to try for peace. but they're not interested. so, we should keep extending the olive branch with one hand, while we blow up safehouses and chase down terrorists with the other, until they come around and realize that there's actually some incentive for them to be peaceful. so far, there really isn't. but it doesn't serve much of a purpose to throw our hands up in the air and say "we already lost, we're ****ed".

                    the U.N. needs to be pressured to take a much harder stance on terrorism. neither fully cooperating with its present policies on the one hand, nor just going it alone on the other, are going to solve anything.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by lester1/2jr
                      A new independent, peer-reviewed study has concluded that at least 100,000 Iraqi civilians have died because of the U.S invasion last year.
                      The study entitled "Mortality Before And After The 2003 Invasion of Iraq: A Cluster Sample Survey" appears in Britain's foremost medical journal "The Lancet" and was conducted by researchers at Columbia University, Johns Hopkins and Al-Mustansiriya in Baghdad.

                      The estimated number of deaths of 100,000 is considerably higher than previous estimates. The study found the rise in the death rate was mainly due to violence and much of it was caused by U.S. air strikes on towns and cities. Most of the victims were women and children.
                      I find this interesting. How in the hell do you think they came up with these numbers? I mean, really now. Think about it....
                      Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

                      "You're just a jaded cynical mother****er...." Jeffpeg

                      (more comments in my User Profile)
                      russbo.com


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                      • #26
                        we could read up about the study and find out. it wouldn't be impossible. at lot of it might depend on the accuracy of records kept by the saddam regime, or the accuracy of our own from-the-outside population estimates of iraq, and so on.

                        my question is, how did that kind of thing find its way into a medical journal? as far as i know, no one's searching for the Cure To Violence...
                        Last edited by zachsan; 11-02-2004, 04:04 PM.

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                        • #27
                          dogchow... that post was all over the place. nobody, not the UN, not anyone, is saying that it's "legal" to blow up a train full of people in spain or a disco in israel.

                          Zach, i didnt say it IS legal, i'm saying that bit by bit they make itillegal for people to retaliate (again, the example of America and their operations in Afghanistan, etc). Also, you would be amazed to what degree the UN is responsible for aiding Hamas and such organizations in the Territories. I really think you just might be unaware of it. Soldiers have been kidnapped by people using UN vehicles (the video footage of which that Nazi Kofi Annan still wont let Israel have), UN vehicles have been used to smuggle weapons, most recently Kassam 2 rockets, to areas where they can be launched at civillian targets. Its very simple, when the UN feels sorry for you, they help you. Also, The PLO has been swinging a significant amuont of influence in determining in the UN what "Resistance" means, who is allowed to do it and how. If my post is all over the place, i am happy for you that you understand that little. It really is much easier on your blood pressure.

                          they deal with organizations like the PLO as a representing body for the terrorists who are doing these things.

                          The PLO, much like just about every other active "palestinian" organization, has the stated goal of destroying Israel and replacing it with a Caliphate. The only way for them to be "Liberated" is through armed struggle. Arafat wears a military uniform, and has won a Nobel Peace prize (after which he turned around and order his people to begin an Intifada which lasts to this very day). EVERY emblem of such an organization has in it a map of Israel completely filled in, yet the Israelis are the land-grabbing oppressors.
                          To even FART in the direction of paying attention to this organization is a corruption. Until something else replaces what's at the tables we have nobody to consider. We tried, believe me. all it got us was more dead people.

                          everybody knows organizations like that have links to terrorism; otherwise, there would be no reason to deal with them. the same way the british government deals with representatives of the NRA in ireland. that's not condoning terrorism or making anything "legal", that's just an attempt (a bad one, in my mind, but an attempt) at some resolution of the problem.


                          To negotiate with these nutcases is corruption. It is also appeasement, and is a reason why, as Derschowitz has very correctly put it, Terrorism works. because people think you can talk to them. you give them a finger (no matter which finger it is) and they end up with the whole hand. We are already ****ed when all we have is terrorist organizations to talk to and we actually grace them with meetings so that maybe they will be less Terrorism...ish.

                          Guys, stop the apologizing and appeasing. Stop letting them play by our rules so that they can replace them with theirs.

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                          • #28
                            Oh, and Mortal, you're a nutjob.

                            I take that as a complement. Thank you.

                            You should see what being a nutjob does for my kungfu training.

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                            • #29
                              DC, you're the reason I decided to stop talking about politics unless someone asks me. But I have to say, I totally agree with you. We've lost the war in Iraq.
                              Show me a man who has forgotten words, so that I can have a word with him.

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                              • #30
                                i honestly didn't know about the U.N. outright helping the palestinians, but i would like a little more evidence before i swallow it. have you seen the videos that the U.N. "won't give" to israel, and if not, how do you know they exist? and even if they do, how do we know they weren't stolen U.N. vehicles? i'm not ruling it out, i again would just like to see more before i swallow it.

                                Originally posted by dogchow108
                                To negotiate with these nutcases is corruption. It is also appeasement, and is a reason why, as Derschowitz has very correctly put it, Terrorism works. because people think you can talk to them. you give them a finger (no matter which finger it is) and they end up with the whole hand. We are already ****ed when all we have is terrorist organizations to talk to and we actually grace them with meetings so that maybe they will be less Terrorism...ish.
                                it's not corruption just to negotiate with them. my problem is that we're negotiating how this violence is just going to spontaneously stop by rewarding them with a palestinian state, when we should be negotiating nothing but their surrender. i absolutely agree with you that both the U.N. and the U.S. need to change their position on this drastically. and you're dead on about the true goal of the PLO, but again, if their stated goal was just to dance in the fields and smoke pot there wouldn't be much to negotiate about.

                                anyway, i'm saying i agree with you for the most part, but my point is this: the U.N. needs to change the way it deals with terrorism. but the interest of the U.S. will be best served by trying to change the U.N. from the inside out, rather than breaking off and alienating its allies entirely, because, for our own safety, our greatest asset will be the intelligence and assistance they provide. it's in extreme cases of hostility between nations (please see: the middle east) that terrorism is allowed to thrive. we're of course nowhere near that with the rest of the world, but even the smallest nugget of foreign intel could be the preventative factor to another 9/11-like attack.

                                if we were fighting a conventional war, bush's go-it-alone approach might make sense, but this is not a conventional problem, and we need cooperation. the same way the 9/11 commission suggested we need an overhaul of our own intelligence, we need an overhaul of the way we obtain intelligence from other countries, and a big part of that will be suspending our own (or israel's) immediate interests from time to time. that's just how it works. i'm not thrilled about such an idea by any stretch, but the situation calls for some pragmatism.

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