Get rid of the wu shu

[blooming tianshi lotus]

well, take a look at the complexity of the styles in mention.

kickboxing, this is pretty much as easy as it gets when it comes to remembering moves and applications, no cryptic messages, simple principles, simple effective moves and execution, relying on their brute strength and conditioning. a ring fighter can be made in about 2 years minimum. on the other hand, you have tma's, which are much more complicated as a system and harder to master, taking decades to reach the ideal proficiency level, it is alot of information to remember and actually be able to USE it, and, it is not really modernized, the creators of these arts did not ever encounter these big huge muscle types, they were used to fughting people of equal stature, so in my opinion the moves arent really affective in fighting larger stronger opponents, and the ones that are, are usually to deadly to perform in the ring, ahighly trained deadly tmaist, would most likely just rip your guts out, pull your nuts off, tear your throat etc. but with the prevalence of aids and other transmittable diseases, i dont see the logic in that. these arts are not sport arts, but MARTIAL KILLING arts, when you bring them to the sport side, you take away alot of their effectiveness, judo is a prime victim of this, judo is a more effective art then jiu jitsu, the kodokan of the olden days proved it, but certain things like atemi waza techniques taught to jigoro kano by he founder of shotokan karate, have been stripped away due to the deadliness of them. also, most of these arts train you to be sneaky in application, using principle that your opponent does not understand, while an art like kickboxing just teaches you how to beat the crap out of someone, plain and simple. honestly, i dont think modern fighters posses the skill or devotion to their tma's to be able to represent them in a ring, back in those days, all one had was his martial arts, it was thier life, nowadays, people train to be cool, or bring glory to themselves. jiu jitsu is so effective because it has the power to cut the fight short very quickly, dont let em grab you or its over, they will twist your ass up like a pretzle, break your limbs, or choke the life out of you in a second. also tma's are stuck in tradition. take a child, train him in tma's all his life, the way they used to do it, then combine a rough conditioning regimen, and possibly bulk him up to about 200 pounds of muscle like most of these cage fighters are, and i bet you would find a new breed of cagefighter. dont forget, that kickboxing and jiu jitsu DERIVE from the traditional martial arts.

Considering how long tcma has actually been around and how many times they've encountered conflict with bigger fokls from other countries ( like Japan and Russia etc) , and how muay thai ( kickboxing) is a modified sport version of muay barron ( the battlefield art ) itself , some interesting comments.

Tcma isn't difficult either! It just requires real applications .............

cheers

Blooming Lotus

[arhat]

Let me just state that I am not a huge fan of these shows. I don't really watch TV and I can think of better ways to spend pay per view dollars, lol.... But I've seen a few. I got a kick out of that reality show on SPIKE. And while people might not call what some of these fighters are doing "gong fu," it sure as shit looks like some of them have good gong fu- which is why I said that you can achieve results independantly...good martial artists are going to have good tools, but MA egos are so inflated they have to have the best style or something.

My overall point was that gong fu, if used in the ring, will be undistinguishable to people who need to be reached to expand and grow gong fu. If it is distinguishable, the fighter using the factors will get owned.

Sounds like a catch 22. I'm afraid I don't get why someone has to mantis fist someone in MMA gloves to be using gong fu. If someone throws a straight punch, and it comes from the ground up and they pull the opposite shoulder back...that's a Shaolin punch. I'll return to San Da as an example- every technique has been pulled from traditional forms. That's fighting. That's traditional.

And as good as Shaolin monks like SYM are, I doubt that they would consistantly demolish some of these UFC guys in a ring bout. Despite the obvious prowess of SYM, it is my belief that the advantage is on the UFC'ers.

Well nobody is invincible. The only rule of fighting that I ever learned is that someday someone will beat you. Where I think the monks would excel is in their pain management, speed, conditioning (well some of them, lol) and delivery of 4 kinds of power at whim. I think they have a lot in their tool box which are underplayed in these ring fights. I never see a lot of knees or elbows. Maybe they aren't allowed I dunno, but Shaolin is LOADED with knees and elbows, dirty tricks.

[LeiYunFat]

Agreed.

And as for the mantis thing; people will want to see a tcma'ist use tcma in the ring, right? If what Stylee said happened (more representation of t[c]ma in fights and events), then people will want to see what they see in the techniques-- in the forms. Basically, your average viewer will expect a stylized, Once Upon a Time in China deal. In order for them to know that it is a tcma, they will want to see something like a mantis form. They will want to see some crane. If or whent hey do, they should be able to know this as tcma, thus giving tcma spotlight and the attention that tcma needs. Ultimately, this will cause a larger influx of students/interest and therefore reignite the spark of tma that some believe has been lost.

Something as subtle as a Shaolin Punch won't be registered by average viewers. A punch is a punch, a kick is a kick.

[arhat]

but don't you think that is perpetrating a kind of farce...

I would laugh my ass off if some guy pulls a ralph macchio...

the last thing TCMAs need are wannabes, so if a recruitment tool is needed, and I don't think one is, I submit a better tool be found.

I think the assumption that because prc wushu is more popular than traditional gong fu means that tcma is dying out or something is fallacious.

tcma will always be less popular and I think that is natural.

[shaolinstylee]

As popular as wushu is... there are 10 schools min, that are traditional... Ok, they might all be bunk... but still

[Maestro]

"Each aids and abets the other, I just get confused when people need to see some kind of definable structure so they can put a label on it and say, oh look...he is using gong fu. To me, that is fluff, but deliver and understand your power and how to deliver it, that's gong fu more than the trappings."

the structure is the only way a master can tell if a student or another practitioner is any good and thats on a basic level. its the same for all martial arts, you need to have correct body mechanics to deliver a powerful blow, even the heavy weights use basic technique built off a structural power

that is the external form, if you look at shaolin gung fu and you dont see the 6 harmonies being utilized, you know the practitioner doesnt have qi behind the technique. in shaolin you have to have correct body structure, to deliver a punch with the external elements you mentioned(power originating from the ground, directed through the waist and expressed through the hands) but the external has to be the right shape for the qi to flow and be utilized in every technique.

even in qi gong, tai ji, etc you have to have proper structure for qi to be harnessed and utilized, its true that you can feel qi sitting down, or standing upright, but the structure is still there, the spine must be straight, the body relaxed but upright, chest concave etc etc

this all correlates with body state, unitary theory, and yin/yang cycling and these skills can be found in shaolin collection 3 submitted from uwe

"Well nobody is invincible. The only rule of fighting that I ever learned is that someday someone will beat you. Where I think the monks would excel is in their pain management, speed, conditioning (well some of them, lol) and delivery of 4 kinds of power at whim. I think they have a lot in their tool box which are underplayed in these ring fights. I never see a lot of knees or elbows. Maybe they aren't allowed I dunno, but Shaolin is LOADED with knees and elbows, dirty tricks."

plenty of knees, elbows and lots of dirty tricks in NHB you just have to watch the more skilled fighters, yuki kondo and tito comes to mind..lol

[blooming tianshi lotus]

You guys are soo right on this one and I'm glad we're all on the same page!!


Imo and in that of many tcmaers, Gongfu is a method and way so much as series of forms and "kata" in direct sequence. Alot of fokls, particularly external maers just don't get that and so want to see some forms or offence stance executions ( like my over testosteroned "Australian shotokan " hero drunken muscle bound bitching ass I'm so god dammed strong and male neighbour for instance) and have you spar them just to have you "prove" the whole gongfu validity!!! ??? !! ......... And the fact that real gongfu is only at core and heart A. intimate practice for love of the art ( as opposed to a violent need to fight and conquer to feel whole or someshit) and B. best seen only when needed ( as in direct and neccessary defence) rather than for pull material, is really disconcerting for external folk missing the boat.

On wushu though, It definately had and still does have it's place! It was all that was legal for a good history wack, and if that's what they needed to claim to keep our arts alive, well ****ing props to them okay! Of course it's largely performance and needs adaption techs to be practical, but if it wasn't for wushu, how many of us would've received what we know anyway???!!!

You do what you do and then what you gotta to keep doing it.......................IMHO anyway

cheers

BL

[master-lu]

I tottally agree!!!!!

WUSHU is GAY!!! I too am sick of it! I don't like its affect on the real Kung fu i agree with all you who are fed up with the bull sh..

[LeiYunFat]

I hate it in that it is being seen as a standard for gong fu and in a sense phasing things out like chin na, but I do think it makes someone very compotent as a martial artist, like others have said before, those flips and flashy stuff will definitely make you stronger.

I'm a fairly strong guy and I can't get horizontal and do a 360 spin when I jump.

[daodejing]

I got nothing against wushu. People can practice whatever they want to practice.

I think the notion, introduced above, that tcma are dying out and need to be saved in this generation, is a crock of horseshit. This generation has seen more introduction of tcma to the world than any other in history. It is evolving not dying. Nothing needs saving. Just practice and be true to yourself. To be true to your self, to your practice, this is the essence of respect for tradition.

[LeiYunFat]

How so? If gong fu is becoming wushu through means of saturation, then other arts like chin na become lost in the wind. We may be introduced to them, but honestly, who can be considered a "Master of ChinNa" like Shi Su Geng?

http://x.russbo.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2135

If this guy didn't pass his knowledge on, then it's a damn shame. Even if this generation doesn't give a shit about chin na, what aout others to come? Chin na is definately not going die right in it's tracks, but how can you say TCMA (in this case chin na) is evolving when realistically this is stopping progress, if not taking a step back?

Right now, it seems like a very valid claim to say that wushu is phasing other tcma's out (not killing them)