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  • #46
    I just want to know if their insane conviction is that strong. Remember there are far more people in the world that dont even have an option as to what to eat. Thousands die of hunger every day. The whole animal rights movement is really a 1st world elitist movement. The starving people are of the world are just happy to have food they dont care if its meat or not.
    The essential point in science it not a complicated mathematical formalism or a ritualized experimentation. Rather the heart of science is a kind of shrewd honesty the springs from really wanting to know what the hell is going on!

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    • #47
      there was a video of some people doing the ball snipping on little piglets and tossing them back in the pin squealing like crazy.

      and by personality and suffering, of course i dont mean human personality. but its true many types of animals do have distinctive personalities. take dogs and cats for example. pets many are familiar with. they have personalities.

      and no matter the type of animal you can see it in their eyes when they are not having a good time. you can see the suffering. they dont have to be intelligent to express that, but perhaps you have to be intelligent to see that.

      its true, meat eating and vegetarianism is a choice for most of us. and the only thing it is sacrificing is taste. we can live just fine and even more healthy on vegetarian diets if you eat smart.

      i think the sacrifice of taste for the animals suffering is a small price to pay.

      and dont get me wrong on this topic. i was the first to point out the bullsh!t of peta when liutangsanzang brought it up recently. but the message is the same no matter who its from. the videos speak for themselves.

      when it comes down to it, if people insist on eating meat and have to kill animals, its easy to just shoot the thing in the head or something. there's no need to torture the animals and mistreat them the way they do. thats just a sick game.

      like the fur farm, they literally ripped the hide off of the animals while they were still alive. they knocked their heads on the ground first to daze them. but seriously, cant they just kill the thing first?!

      not that i support either way, but the least they could do is not mistreat them while they're alive and make the death a fast one. its like they have fun torturing the animals. thats stupid sh!t little kids do.

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      • #48
        Originally posted by liutangsanzang View Post
        OK, zen consider vegetarianism as a preaching of compassion for the suffering of living beings as an emanation of Guan Yin Pusa/Avalokistevara!

        Glad to be part of the emanation!

        Though i dont believe it. Again, am i the only ignorant here, while meat eater know what they do?

        So i come for some advice for meat eaters: please rescue me from my ignorance about non violence and eating!Guan Yin Pusa would always help those who ask her so i hope you egoless meat eaters will help.
        I really come for advice, onesp1ng, thanks for putting me on this dialectical idea. Being ignorant, i really need the advice of meat eaters, that is a less egoistic way. I am not ironic.

        Thanks for the preaching objections, it is also quite dialectical and useful.

        Onesp1ng, so do you consider veg people do not have more compassion? What about the suffering of animals we see in Peta's documentaries? How to deal with that?

        I hope it is honest enough questioning.
        Hey Doc, got Hell up and running yet?
        "For some reason I'm in a good mood today. I haven't left the house yet, though. "

        "fa hui, you make buddhism sexy." -Zachsan

        "Friends don't let friends do Taekwondo." -Nancy Reagan

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        • #49
          Originally posted by Iron Cross View Post
          Where does it end with you people? Seriously. After you would ban all forms of animal usage what would you do next? WOuld you ban lions from eating animals too. I mean the zebras personality and suffering is very apparent when the lion suffocates it to death and tears into its stomach with its teeth.
          it appears you're replying to my previous post. but i am not one of those people. i'm not against all forms of animal usage. just unnecessary abuse.

          and there is a big difference between a human being and a lion killing animals like that. i would like to think that human beings are more intelligent, and i know we can survive without meat.

          a lion does what it does because its dull-minded, like all animals, and cant survive otherwise. they dont think and reason over things like that. human beings have the mental capacity to choose between killing and not killing, or at least to torture or not. and we humans can survive on vegetarian diets.

          i heard the question put to buddhist logic whether or not animals create negative karma in the act of killing to eat. they havent taken the five precepts.

          but being aware of the precepts or not, they can be broken. thats why the animal realm is a lower plane of existence. because their minds are too dull.

          human beings can learn about the law of karma and how it works whether or not you pay it any mind. whether you take a precept or not, actions have results. the precepts just point that out. human beings are fortunate because we can think and choose, and also survive either way we go.

          I'm really curious. I've always wanted to ask a PETA person or animal rights activist this. If you were along on a boat with no food. The only thing you have is a single chicken. Would you kill the chicken and eat it, thus surviving, or let the chicken live and you yourself die????
          i'm definitely not a peta person or animal rights activist, but i would most likely starve to death. i wouldnt be able to kill the chicken with my own bare hands. and for what? to extend my life a little longer and then die?

          better to go without killing. put myself to use. maybe the chicken would eat me after i die. good thing i have the mental capacity to reason like that.

          besides if i cant cook the chicken, i'll probably not be any better off eating it like that.

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          • #50
            Man you are crazy. The lion eats meat because it doesnt know any better????? no the lion eats meat because IT HAS TO.. Lions lack the ability to digest grasses and vegetation. Humans are omnivores. We eat both plants and animals. Thats why we have the teeth that we do. There are essential amino acids and vitamins and minerals that are found best in meat sources.

            But you know what man do what ever you want. Value chickens and cows above human life whatever lets you sleep at night. I will keep eating meat because its healthy and almost required given the about of athletics I am involved in. Every vegetarian I know just looks thin and weak to some degree. They always seem injured too, especially the athletic ones. If they are very athletic they never seem to be able to maintain weight, or its extremely hard for them to.

            So do what ever you want. I'm done talking about this ridiculous topic. As I said before this is really a 1st world elitists problem. The starving people of the world have no choice in what they eat, if they eat.....
            The essential point in science it not a complicated mathematical formalism or a ritualized experimentation. Rather the heart of science is a kind of shrewd honesty the springs from really wanting to know what the hell is going on!

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by Iron Cross View Post
              I just want to know if their insane conviction is that strong. Remember there are far more people in the world that dont even have an option as to what to eat. Thousands die of hunger every day. The whole animal rights movement is really a 1st world elitist movement. The starving people are of the world are just happy to have food they dont care if its meat or not.

              No. and I cant imagine the lion or any other wild carnivorous/ omnivorus animal looking at like that neither.

              I dont think it's at all feasible or reasonable to believe that ceasation of meat eating is ever not going to be a really important part of the eco-system nor that it will ever stop.

              That ppl perceive that individual life doesn't want to not continue living is highly egostical and unrealistic nervoushysteria. we are all born with sensory input that tells us that our DNA program is made to have our lives expire. our most realistic and highest reasoning is well aware of this. Also having and coming from elements of whichever stage of combination points of the macrocosmic whole, at some level, we also have a capacity to recognise ourselves as a temporary expression of the whole movement, and how that all works together, and whether we protest or not.


              Survival terms and what whichever thing has to do to survive, and life and death and how natural selection works in the eco -system is a thing that is a huge factor in understanding compassion. ppl can fight laws of physics for all their worth, and work themselves up into any manner of panic or upset about it, and yet, it cannot be changed.


              This isn't the frst time in this round of topic, that I've wondered how at peace with death some ppl reeally are...just like the helpless little kicking chicken. natural selection is just what it is, and no amount of panic or upset is going to change the fact. that's the circle of life and that is how it works.

              If something is vulnerable, you can bet it's because nature needed to have someway for the next thing in the chain to access it.

              Blooming tianshi lotus.

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              • #52
                fabulous reading comprehension, cross.

                Originally posted by Iron Cross View Post
                Man you are crazy. The lion eats meat because it doesnt know any better?????
                thats actually not what i said.

                no the lion eats meat because IT HAS TO.. Lions lack the ability to digest grasses and vegetation.
                thats actually what i was saying.

                But you know what man do what ever you want. Value chickens and cows above human life whatever lets you sleep at night.
                never said i do.

                I will keep eating meat because its healthy and almost required given the about of athletics I am involved in.
                i never suggested you stop.

                Every vegetarian I know just looks thin and weak to some degree. They always seem injured too, especially the athletic ones. If they are very athletic they never seem to be able to maintain weight, or its extremely hard for them to.
                thats stupid.

                The starving people of the world have no choice in what they eat, if they eat.....
                fortunately, we do.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by Fa Hui View Post
                  Hey Doc, got Hell up and running yet?
                  No man. Not yet. I've been working on getting the Arcade back up and running so Onesping can demonstrate his remarkable prowess to the rest of us.

                  But I agree with you. I see a need for HELL to come back. I'll put it on the list...
                  Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

                  "You're just a jaded cynical mother****er...." Jeffpeg

                  (more comments in my User Profile)
                  russbo.com


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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by doc View Post
                    No man. Not yet. I've been working on getting the Arcade back up and running so Onesping can demonstrate his remarkable prowess to the rest of us.

                    But I agree with you. I see a need for HELL to come back. I'll put it on the list...
                    I hate to be the one to agree that people go there but some people just need a time-out.
                    "For some reason I'm in a good mood today. I haven't left the house yet, though. "

                    "fa hui, you make buddhism sexy." -Zachsan

                    "Friends don't let friends do Taekwondo." -Nancy Reagan

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Ironcross, you say you just see animals as food. What about the suffering? Scientific research has shown that fish can suffer, do you care about this when you go fishing? Of course it is not ultimatly proven, but it makes sense. You dont need to be buddhist to have some compassion.
                      You say the world is starving, well meat eating is far more space and energy consuming. It might be an ecological and rational move to eat more vegetables. That s what this indian nobel prize winner says. And India has lived long enough on a large scale vegetarian basis. Why not go back to the roots of Shaolin?

                      BTL, you say nature has a plan when it creates weakness in order for something else to live. But how do you know nature has a plan?This is higly questionable. Are war and genocides part of the plan?

                      Fa Hui thanks for proposing me to hell. A Shaolin site should not talk about vegetarianism, it is too much tolerant. Why do you choose Shaolin if you are not interested in talking about vegetarianism?

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by liutangsanzang View Post
                        Fa Hui thanks for proposing me to hell. A Shaolin site should not talk about vegetarianism, it is too much tolerant. Why do you choose Shaolin if you are not interested in talking about vegetarianism?
                        You just don't get it do you? You are on this superficial-vegan-gotta save all the precious animals-trip, and you don't even see what's right in front of your face! Wake-up man! Grow past your ideas, and discover something about yourself.

                        You go back and forth, back and forth looking for some single way to condemn others for not following YOUR beliefs. Get over it! Those who condemn or approve of other people's beliefs are looking for approval, and for recognition. People like that need others to feel proud of them because they are not proud of themselves in some way. Stop looking outside yourself for some profound meaning because all you are going to find is a pile of dogshit that smells remarkably like your own! Instead of constantly preaching, regardless of whether you think are or not, shut up and learn something about yourself! It's said that "those who speak, don't know; those who know, don't speak." Get it?

                        When you sit your ass down on your cushion, instead of meditating and thinking deep thoughts about HOW to be non-violent, just let go and be the very thing you are. Let go, and tell the mind to take a vacation for the next 20 to 30 minutes. Just sit there and get to know yourself.

                        I don't want you to go to hell, but you have to realize one all important aspect: this has nothing to do with the animals, Shaolin, Buddhism, Zen, Laozi and his fishes. Nothing to do with them at all, and nothing to do with being american, chinese, and or french. It has nothing to do with any of this, and the sooner you realize that, the better.

                        Take it easy!
                        "For some reason I'm in a good mood today. I haven't left the house yet, though. "

                        "fa hui, you make buddhism sexy." -Zachsan

                        "Friends don't let friends do Taekwondo." -Nancy Reagan

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                        • #57
                          this has nothing to do with the animals, Shaolin, Buddhism, Zen, Laozi and his fishes. Nothing to do with them at all, and nothing to do with being american, chinese, and or french.
                          well said, fa....
                          ZhongwenMovies.com

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                          • #58
                            I think I mentioned before I dont care in the slightest about the suffer the chicken goes through so I can eat it. Dont care one bit.

                            The big problem PETA has is how it approaches this issue. You come here talking about the emotions and personality of the chicken or cow like it was your childhood friend. You talk about how the fish suffers when i catch it. Well with the fish remember it was trying to eat another fish when i caught it. So, in reality I am saving fish by catching fish.

                            Your argument might have more weight behind it if you came here laying down some serious scientific research or evidence to backup your claims. Instead you resort to sensationalism and over the top preaching. I could probably make a better argument right now for a vegetarian diet than anyone else has and I'm not even a vegetarian.

                            Here goes...

                            The amount of gain used to feed cattle in the US could feed 800 million people. This is incidentally why the widespread domestication of carnivores for eating has ever taken place. Not because they taste bad but because the amount of resources needed to raise a lion for eating would be too costly. YOu would need first the grain to feed the animals that would then be used to feed the lion. Dogs have been used for food for centuries though. However, dogs can be considered omnivores. It is horribly energy efficient to raise cows. THe energy that comes from eating cows takes 4-54 times the energy to create. COws release enough methane gas, a greenhouse gas, to equal the effect of CO2 released by all the cars on the road. And so on and so forth...

                            To me this carries more weight than "My chicken has feelings" or "The fish suffers"
                            The essential point in science it not a complicated mathematical formalism or a ritualized experimentation. Rather the heart of science is a kind of shrewd honesty the springs from really wanting to know what the hell is going on!

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              i dont know if i'm being placed in the peta/activist group on this thread by default because of my position. but just to make it clear again, my position as follows. i was the first to call peta's bs when liutangsanzang brought it up.

                              i've never suggested someone stop eating meat and become vegan or even vegetarian. i know where i stand, and you can all choose your own stance as well.

                              my point on this thread has been the unnecessary abuse of animals. the videos on peta's website speak for themselves and say the same thing no matter who it comes from.

                              for me, its not so much about asking everyone to become vegetarian, because i'm not. but if animals must be killed for food or fur, then thats what people will continue to insist on doing. but the unnecessary torturing of the animals is sickening and ridiculous, brainless.

                              as i said, thats like stupid sh!t little kids do.

                              and i think if people cant stomach those videos or do the deed themselves, then they shouldnt be eating meat and using fur or whatnot. because thats lying to their own heart of compassion. pretending it doesnt happen.

                              the smaller the animal the easier. like squashing a bug is no big deal for most. but slicing a cow's stomach open while its standing there mooing at you takes more.

                              its kinda sick how people can just do that. but that wins you the right to do whatever you like with the animal at that point. but if you cant do that and you eat meat and use fur or other animal products, you're kind of a wuss and lie to yourself every time you eat.

                              but either way, the unnecessary torturing of animals is some childish pu$$y sh!t to do.

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                              • #60
                                I come from a tribal heritage that in one part were canibals at one stage, ( and understand that when I say to ppl "I 'll eat you", I mean that I see the vulnerabilty and eat and process that spirit) and who also had farms ( both animal and veggie) and machettes and slingshots had no problem going out and lobbing a leg off of a cow while it was grazing if food was needed nor in climbing a coconut tree and shanghai-ing a fruit bat for a personal beachside roast on a stick, or in slaughtering and cleaning any animal they had in proportion to how many ppl needed to be fed and what the nutritional need was perceived to be. I certainly wouldn't deny them those survival means. there are all sorts of reasons that adequate produce isn't available and why to supplement with meat. Human beings were designed to incorporate that into our survival. we can understand this by looking at either our bone and teeth structure or our by analysising our dna.

                                I also have nothing against storing as many animals as takes to feed ppl by whatever resource is available and economically feasible.
                                I would rather see ppl fed.

                                This is about survival, not personal prejudices. whatever it takes, I am okay with.

                                eat, live, be merry and maintain life if you want to sounds good to me.

                                [quote]
                                BTL, you say nature has a plan when it creates weakness in order for something else to live. But how do you know nature has a plan?This is higly questionable. Are war and genocides part of the plan?
                                [end quote]

                                the plan is called laws of physics. there's no point having any opinion about it, because that is what energy does. It builds in one thing then degenerates to fule something else. that is the cycle of life.
                                if war and genocide has happened, then I would yes. it must also be a part of how it all works. things are meannt to climax and explode and have 'new' things arise out of the elements of it's destruction. you often cite hinduism in regard to this stuff, and funnily, it waaas hinduism that introduced me to shiva deva vu and the universal concept through to parinirvana and of the entire immortal cycle of the place of destruction and rebirth, and never more than in the context Of love and compassion that makes it all go round.

                                I'm not going to respond to your pm about this, but, I highly recommend that you check out the vedic gods and try on perspective about this from there. and yes, I would love to go to india, have tentative future plans to, and no I haven't been there as yet.


                                Blooming tianshi lotus.

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