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What's missing in the martial arts?

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  • What's missing in the martial arts?

    My question is this: what do you all think is missing in the martial arts' representation in the media these days? My opinion is that ever since Bruce Lee's death, there has never been anyone who was concerned with the actual philosophical elements of MA. Even before his death, most of the philosophical content was lost: "Game of Death" was turned from a philosophical analysis of martial arts styles to a stupid cut-and-paste bruce lee film with most of the original content torn away. "The Silent Flute", which from what I hear was going to be his most profound film, detailing the story of self-discovery of a martial artist, never got made due to lack of interest and financial support, primarily due to hollywood racism (same reason Bruce wasn't in the series "Kung Fu").

    Ever since he died, martial arts movies have been all about looking cool, with a focus on finding "the next Bruce Lee", without taking into account any of the moral or philosophical content... and now we have a rash of stupid films like "The One", coasting by on a complete lack of display of any martial skill whatsoever, focusing instead on using trendy, over-used "Matrix"-ripoff special effects. In fact, the Matrix was the last film to have any semblance of depth or maturity whatsoever, and even that was due to the storyline, not with reference to the martial arts in any way.

    Gone are the days when Burce Lee would display a need for justification for the violence, where the protagonist would be forced into a situation where there was a need to defend one's situation, regardless of the fact that you get carted off by the police at the end of the story. What we have instead is a series of daft, badly-coreographed, amoralm, childish punch-ups using silly wirework and tired special effects, with no plot or reasoning whatsoever, where everyone just gets off scott free, even if it's involved killing off police officers or whomever happens to be in the area.
    "Be Cool" - Lao Tzu

  • #2
    What do I think is lacking from martial arts nowadays? The fundamental idea that they are also used to defend yourself in an extreme circumstance. The arts have developed into something to either ensure health or to gain prestige or just something to occupy time. People get caught up in belts or techniques and never really understand that it's about fighting for survival. Which is one reason why, even some high ranked or well versed martial artists get flatlined when they go up against a street fighter who they only training they get is actual fighting. I wouldn't say that flashiness has become more important than function but simply more prevelant nowadays. The mind set going into training is very important, as it decides what you get out of your training and experience. If you do it for health, expect primarily health results. I was reading the back of the Tae Bo video box, and on it had a this white, 30 yr. old, who has a quote underneath him. "Nobody better mess with me, at least I wouldn't." That sort of attitude is so incredibly ignorant. I'll put him against a 250 lb. guy with no martial training at all, and I bet he still would get whipped. Why? For the simple fact, that the training Tae Bo gives mostly health benefits and is designed to give a workout. Take Karate for the simple reason to look coll doing some kicks and punches and that's primarily all the benefits you'll recieve. Sure your health might improve, and you may gain some skills to aid in your personal defense, but primarily you'll punchs and kicks will be flashy and be designed for impression. What's lacking? The danger of not knowing martial arts. With the advent of firearms, self defense by hand to hand combat has fallen by the way side. In addition, it's just not the ability to defend yourself, but the attitude of using it in the most extreme circumstances. In my opinion, the people who learn martial arts to defend themselves are actually looking for a chance to use it in. They hide under the name "self defense" when they are actually "looking for a fight". Maybe they want to be a hero or be that gallant knight in shining armor for some lady who is protecting them from a nasty orge. They are in a sense a bunch of reverse bullies. Waiting for people to pick fights with them. I don't think that was the original intention of any martial discpline. Just my thoughts. The serious nature of complete martial artists, builds a certain depth of training that leads to spiritual insights. Just like a serious painter or dance or anybody else who really tries to learn all aspects of their arts, start to learn more and more about themselves through their practices.

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    • #3
      Wood,

      Good subjects man.

      Firstly, yes, the Matrix had a little more depth, but I didn't like the MA. None of them were particularly good athletes.

      Though I don’t usually get into this movie star stuff, here's a point to ponder. Many people seem to pretty much agree that Bruce Lee (though who the hell really knows, with all the people who 'knew' him) was in person actually pretty egotistical, full of himself and a pain in the ass to be around because he was always flicking kicks and punches at people to practice. He apparently accepted duels. Is that 'last resort, don't fight' stuff? Not all the old ways are good. I think the whole concept of any type of duel to be pointless, east and west. It's all about letting your pride kill you. Though nowadays they don't challenge you to a duel, they just send people over to **** you up a bit. Jet Li has apparently never had a real fight. He seems to be a pretty devout Buddhist who can ride along with the Hollywood stuff. His website is quite unique for a celebrity site; it really is a largely spiritual site. It has the required personal celebrity writing, and the rest he talks about Buddhism. Have a look at it. Jet Li may not have overstressed the philosophies, although his films are not devoid of them - anyway since he's become a Tibetan Buddhist he's been trying to show that through in his latest films. Seen 'Invincible' [directed by JL]? Hee-haw kung fu, but all about Buddhism. So what truly matters? How much they stress the philosophies onscreen or offscreen?

      Yeah, the storyline in The One sucked, but there were some interesting fights. And the point about The One were the parallel worlds, perhaps badly done. I think the effects were done pretty well though. Hey, you might hate his films but you can't knock his wushu.

      But yes, you're right, there's to much shit in the movies now...


      Peace

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      • #4
        Many people seem to pretty much agree that Bruce Lee (though who the hell really knows, with all the people who 'knew' him) was in person actually pretty egotistical, full of himself and a pain in the ass to be around
        This is all very true (as we are led to believe) and I'm not disputing that, but the fact remains that when you read his philosophy essays and his thoughts on things, he turns out to be a very intelligent, even profound man. The problem, I suppose, is the "practice what you preach" thing. Heck, I'm sure if I'd been the only good thing to come out of china in 100 years (though I'm not actually chinese), it probably would have gone to my head too. As for the thing of accepting challenges, I suppose under certain circumstances it can be worthwhile- for instance, when he was challenged with the threat that if he lost he would have to cease teaching martial arts, this is my idea of a challenge worth taking up. Otherwise, where's the "martial" in your art? But, with regard to wasiqi's post, going around starting fights is certainly the wrong attitude.

        Also, it's true that certain Jet Li films are quite philosophical in nature- "Kiss of the Dragon", for instance, has him trying to save a young girl from corrupt- and, even more unforgivably, French, police officers- also, I haven't seen his Fist of Fury remake, but I've heard it's very good. The problem is the amount of time he, and others (Jackie Chan, for example) spend in silly, pointless, effects-laden movies acting as a vehicle to show off the star's particular talent- Jet Li: wushu, Jackie Chan: crazy stunts and running up walls. My point is it's these sorts of movies that give MA a bad name. Sometimes I feel as if I shouldn't tell people I study MA, as it instantly makes them think of crazy, violent psychopaths going around making silly noises and bashing people's heads in. I have to take time explaining to them that really, there's a philosophy behind it and it's also to do with enlightenment and spiritual well-being. I just feel that a resurgence in the obviously-philosophical MA movie would do the whole MA community a power of good.


        [edit] oh yeah and my problem with "the one" was that it COULD have been so much better- the storyline was NEARLY good but not quite, and the special effects just seemed to get in the way of the wonderful displays of skill on Li's part.
        "Be Cool" - Lao Tzu

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        • #5
          Heck, I'm sure if I'd been the only good thing to come out of china in 100 years (though I'm not actually chinese), it probably would have gone to my head too.
          bleh he was the only one who seeked to get fame and be in movies.
          Sometimes I feel as if I shouldn't tell people I study MA, as it instantly makes them think of crazy, violent psychopaths going around making silly noises and bashing people's heads in.
          ur a young guy dude - eventually u will see that people will ALWAYS do that and there snot a damn thing we can do to change it. unless they ARE actually interested in MA then its a different story.
          I just feel that a resurgence in the obviously-philosophical MA movie would do the whole MA community a power of good.
          hence why crouching tiger, hidden dragon, jet lis new movie "hero" and a host of others have always been made, such as "a man called hero" and others. its just the public DO wanna see jackie chan jumping and falling off stuff, getting beat up by 10 men and jumping over things. They dont wanna see someone sitting in a temple meditating facing a wall for 9 years and developing philosophy - is just not entertainment!

          dave
          simple and natural is my method,
          true and sincere is my principle --Tse Sigung

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          • #6
            Yes, I see what you mean Wood, but as Dave said, it's all abut what people want...

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            • #7
              Ah yes grasshopper, but once you've gotten into martial arts- I mean really into it- you start to realise that all the stuff that seemed cool before is merely a vapid, vacuous light show done by people who really could be doing better. The idea- to carry on the Bruce Lee example- is to make a film that looks good and has all the flashy stuff that people want, but have the deeper content in there as well, for people who want to find it.

              people will ALWAYS do that and there snot a damn thing we can do to change it
              Well yeah, that's my point, but the idea is that if the philosophical aspects were more common knowledge (as your average person on the street has no idea about these things- just yesterday I was telling a friend about how MA is an integral part of chinese philosophy; she said "oh really? I never knew that. How interesting"), the problem would be a smaller one, and surely the best way of making this common knowledge is through the medium of cinema.

              Take this as an analogy: let's say you tell someone you're a paleontologist. To a lot of people that just means that you spend your days wandering around the middle of nowhere, trying to dig up some really, really old bits of some animals that died a very, very long time ago. Their reply will be "oh, that's... nice..." (translation: "WOW that's boring"). But if you say to them, "I'm a paleontologist. You know Jurassic Park? I personally had a hand in making that a reality, and now we really have resurrected dinosaurs running around a theme park for your entertainment, due in part to my own personal efforts", they'll suddenly perk up their interest somewhat.

              Now I realise this is an exaggerated analogy, but the principle remains: the opportunity is there to educate people as to the origins and fundamental aspects of an ancient culture, the basic ideas of which still very much apply today. Why aren't we using it more?
              "Be Cool" - Lao Tzu

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              • #8
                coz MA is a minority sport dude - not everyone is interested in spending so long learning health, combat and philosophical stuff. Most owuld much rather go down the pub for a pint or do other sports.

                dave
                simple and natural is my method,
                true and sincere is my principle --Tse Sigung

                Comment


                • #9
                  poor misconceptions

                  i think wood and some of you other guys seem to have a immense misconception of what martial arts is

                  for one thing it cant be defined..so the more i hear you people say how its this or its that just makes you sound just a little bit more dumb errrrrr

                  like many things it cannot be defined..no a martial artists goal is not to contemplate the void..no a martial artists goal is not the be healthy at age 90..no a martial artist goal is not to fight off 4 people in a crowded bar room

                  i could go on but i think you see my point, ma like many things is not definable because it means whatever the practitioner wants it to

                  generally people go for self defense, and health and for some spiritual cultivation(mostly in CMA)

                  but that does NOT define a martial art, you cannot knock movies for "miss portraying" them, they are no miss portraying anything , movies are doing what they always have done..entertain people, they arent there to educate the masses on what YOU think martial arts is or isnt or should be or was

                  nothing is static in this world, not even your own ideas..jet lis movies arent all superficial and without a plot, i could name a dozen right now that arent, but dave did a good job of mentioning CTHD and Hero(which rocks)

                  they are both good movies and its no surprise to me at all the exposure HK is getting nowadays..they use better film, props, cinematogrohpy(spelling??)..better acting..choreographig etc etc

                  like i say all the time..change is natural, you want to say martial arts is this or that go ahead fine..live in your dellusions all you want but sooner or later youll realise the truth behind the nature of world which is what ive been saying all along

                  and if you dont then god have mercy on your poor little heart

                  XXXXXXXXXXXXXX
                  "did you ask me to consider dick with you??" blooming tianshi lotus

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                  • #10
                    have you seen "a man called hero"? its got some cool stuff in it. the HK movie scene was developing along the lines of more "philospohical" and "arty" before ang lee came along with CTHD and then Legend of Zu (Warriors) and all that came out.

                    dave
                    simple and natural is my method,
                    true and sincere is my principle --Tse Sigung

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      YEP

                      yep i know..i just used those as examples and i actually didnt mean to say the films were arty

                      im just saying they are getting alot better, they are incorportaing alot of new ideas and exploiting old ones..its just gettin good real good.
                      "did you ask me to consider dick with you??" blooming tianshi lotus

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                      • #12
                        **sigh** Why is it so hard to get anybody to understand what I mean around here? It seems I have to go back and defend everything I've said against people who have misunderstood purely because I left out some tiny irrelevant point for the sole reason that I thought it was OBVIOUS anyway....

                        MA is a minority sport dude - not everyone is interested in spending so long learning health, combat and philosophical stuff
                        I never suggested everyone should go and learn it for themselves, I said they could be made aware of the deeper aspects (and might find it more interesting then they thought, which is why I gave the example of my friend) if the film industry would back up off of making simple, vacuous quick-money-makers and develop a bit more of the *intelligent* side of things. That means not dumbing everything down perpetually in this eternally consumerist, commercialist cycle and respecting the viewer's intelligence every once in a while. Remember I'm NOT just talking about MA but an entire cultural spectrum that's increasingly lost under piles of trendy special effects and glorified violence. The idea that you seem to be supporting, ie. that films should never be used in an interesting or insightful way but purely for cheap entertainment (though I'm not disputing their entertainment value), I find totally short-sighted. When I talked about the Matrix, I was using it to represent an example of a film which was BOTH entertaining AND interesting, and I'm sure there are more movies like that waiting to be made which aren't given the chance because they're not commercially viable enough, which brings us back to Bruce Lee and the Silent Flute.

                        i think wood and some of you other guys seem to have a immense misconception of what martial arts is for one thing it cant be defined..so the more i hear you people say how its this or its that just makes you sound just a little bit more dumb errrrrr
                        Well I've had people misunderstand my posts before, but that's just offensive. Firstly I don't recall ever saying "martial arts IS / ISN'T this or that", and if I gave that impression I was only addressing one small part of the argument. The reason I haven't said anything about how things like this can't be defined as they're entirely open to personal interpretation (and can be whatever you want them to be)... is because that's pretty BLINDINGLY OBVIOUS, and there's only one person I consider to be sounding "a little more dumb errrrr", because of a certain failure to read into the actual meaning of things I'm saying rather than just taking the words at face value.
                        "Be Cool" - Lao Tzu

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                        • #13
                          hey mate no need to get so upset... i was trying to say movies are for entertainment and MA documentaries are for finding out more about the skill, culture etc. you have to make that distinction.

                          Have you seen many Hong Kong and Chinese movies? There is a LOT that is talking about historical events/legends/culture etc. infact chinese soaps for a long time in the 80's and 90's tended to be their equivalent of a "period drama". there was even one based on bruce lees "fist of fury" and was like a many part mini-series hehe - all about "fok yun nap" (Ho Yun Chia) the founder of the Jing Wu school. i caught a few episodes but would rather see bruce lee or jet li in their movies

                          dave
                          simple and natural is my method,
                          true and sincere is my principle --Tse Sigung

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            lol

                            lol umm wood you are pretty confused there buddy

                            for one thing you obviously have a lack of exposure to HK movies

                            and another your "understanding" of this whole topic seems to be biased...even though you seem to refute that at all costs saying this or that about what you think you said or whatever

                            the fact is when you say things like this

                            "Sometimes I feel as if I shouldn't tell people I study MA, as it instantly makes them think of crazy, violent psychopaths going around making silly noises and bashing people's heads in. I have to take time explaining to them that really, there's a philosophy behind it and it's also to do with enlightenment and spiritual well-being. I just feel that a resurgence in the obviously-philosophical MA movie would do the whole MA community a power of good."

                            you dont come off as the openminded non biased type to me..you sound as if your speaking for the entire ma community as if you have some right to say what it is an isnt

                            but whatever im sure youll just oppose your own words again..

                            btw i wasnt trying to insult you so you can just calm down..and usually when i post i dont target 1 person in particular i usually address an issue which is common amongst people in the subject we are discussing

                            mkay?

                            btw bruce lees little wisdoms on life arent original, they guy grew up in hong kong , he was an actor, his father was an actor, he was a martial artist and lest not forget he was a philosoph major at berkely(i think?)

                            so whatever you think is "originally" his perceptions are highly doubtable since all his influences were coming in basically the same direction..

                            im just suprised at all the stupid rumors people seem to believe as facts =) lol
                            "did you ask me to consider dick with you??" blooming tianshi lotus

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                            • #15
                              Vince, stop yelling at him. Of course he has a right to say what is and what isn't - that's his opinion. No one has no right to their own opinion. I think the words 'I just feel that...' seem to indicate that he wasn't speaking for the entire MA community.

                              Jim, take it with a pinch of salt. Although Vince still has to clean up his Mr Nice Guy act, (oh shit, what have I got myself into now..) he's very pragmatic and seems to get excited when he comes across someone who he perceives to be naive...yes, you can call me Dr Lipster..

                              Your problem seems to be with modern day culture in general. Even if people did stick in some philosophical bits, it would be lost on a large amount of people. You seem to be an intelligent guy which means you would probably surround yourself with the same sort of people, which leaves you out of touch with the vast majority of the rest of the world. For a long time I thought a C grade was a pretty low grade, until I found out it's actually the top 20% of the country’s grades. And America is even worse in regards to education. Jesus, I hope I don't sound too elitist - I don't mean to. The vast majority of people have absolutely no interest in that stuff even if they see it and so that's what they get. Do you know how many people I've come across who thought the Matrix was a cool action movie, yet missed the whole point or didn't understand the deeper side of it. When I tried to explain it to them, they gave up after half a minute. "What the hell do you have to make it so complicated for?"

                              Movies are made for money, not educational value, with perhaps a few exceptions. Simple as that really. Just because you and the people you know may potentially have an interest if it was explained to them, that doesn't reflect on most other people out there. We can cry about it, but that's reality.


                              Peace
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