Palin Says Daughter, 17, Is Pregnant

[liutangsanzang]

About politician's association with evil spirits, i m reading this book about the african policies of france since 1958. It is quite terrifying, murders are in tons, tortures, corruptions. From right to left, nearly nobody is saved.

Of course i dont take all for granted, but there might be some truth. How could they be so evil? How can they make friends? How can we vote for them?

U might have understood i went to quite an elite political school. When i ask my friends what they think about this book 95% of them dont answer.

We dont love big brother.

[doc]

The French were trying to maintain their colonial ties, just as they were in Vietnam. It was a sign of international power. The English did it in the 1700's onward, Russia did it (and continues to do so), and even the US tries to exert an extended sphere of influence, which is not exactly colonization, to this day.

It's what countries do. For security, money, resources, pride, what have you..

The French are getting theirs now, quite ironically. Colonizing Algeria and other African countries in the past just opened the door for them immigration wise. Now they have a serious immigrant and Muslim problem. Some karma.

[zachsan]

...Which wouldn't be such a problem if they didn't have socialized everything. One of the problems with their kind of health care and employment system is that it's inflexible, and they're feeling that in a big way right now.

[liutangsanzang]

Doc, i dont really know why u keep on saying there is an immigrant and muslim problem. In France, only extreme right says that (so quite close to fascists). Traditional right wing does not say that. There are problems from time to time, but these people make the economy work, there are a chance to mix culture. Why muslims are a problem? Are jewish a problem in USA? If i was to say that, i could be called an antisemite or racist.

One objective fact is that people coming from immigration have higher deliquance statistics. But you can say it is a socio economical problem. Why insist on ethnicity or on religion (strangely again, muslims)? Could you elaborate more why islam is a problem in France?

Zach, i m not going to defend the social system of France. It may create problems but it has also qualities, linked to a certain idea of the Republic where equality and fraternity are the highest values. The fact is that a majority of french people are attached to this system. Do you think they are stupid?


Peace and love

[doc]

It may have something to do with what we see on the news. Burning cars and roving gangs are hard to miss on the television.

And what I hear from expats who I meet in Asia.

[Iron Cross]

Actually Doc is right on this one. Europe is having a huge problem now with Immigrants from Islamic countries. Britain, France, Germany, the Netherlands all have large Muslim populations now that refuse to integrate and continue to push for Islamic laws and Sharia Courts for themselves. The idea of a secular society seems incompatible to those that take this stance, thus leading to conflict. Combine all this with the amount of socialized institutions there and new immigrants hardly need to work to live. If thats the case why bother trying to integrate when the state will just give you what you need?

I read another article not long ago about the difference between American Islamic immigrants and european ones. When people immigrate to the USA it is usually to seek a better life with the purpose of integrating into the society. However, in Europe a lot of the Islamic immigrants are there seeking asylum or because it is their only option. So, the reason is not the same and the desire to integrate and be part of the European society is not there. Most would still see the customs of the countries they live in as "foreign" and "evil" when, Ironically, they have welcomed these people openly and given them what they need to live.

Not surprisingly, Some countries there have begun cracking down on immigration from the "developing world". The Netherlands now requires immigrants from the "developing world" aka Muslim countries, to watch a movie containing nudity and homosexuality, and to also pass a language test if applying for a visa. Alot of applicants fail the tests and there is a measurable decline in immigration there and visa applications. I read one statistic that said 600,000 people there cant even speak dutch. In a country of 16 million of so that is HUGE. I believe Spain also began making immigration more difficult for people from these regions.

So, yes, for the French and the rest of Europe Islamic immigration is a HUGE problem now. Not to mention lots of these so called immigrants are setting up terror cells in their host countries. Thats not an ethnocentric or racist remark either. That is easily backed up by the numerous terror attacks or terror cells that have been broken up in recent years.

The other HUGE problem is how alot of Islamic organizations are straight funded by wealthy Saudi businessmen or princes to build Mosques or to push for things like Sharia Courts or exemption from European laws on all matters considered "religious".

The more I hear about these things the more I love the United States of America. We dislike foreigners just enough to not let this happen. I guess we have a fun balance of acceptance and complete ethnocentrism. Hooray! USA! USA!

[liutangsanzang]

Ok, you guys are having a paranoiac delirium. Go away from your fears and get back to the reality or you are going mad.

So my muslims friends are a HUGE problem for France. I m sure they will be glad to hear that. Do you want their email so you can explain that to them? I m afraid they will feel insulted and think you are racists.

I ve worked with tons of muslims and as salesmen they are very appreciated, they are good at business.

Doc, riots do not happen every day. And the jails in the USA are more crowded than in France though you dont have any muslims. How do you explain that? So do you get bad informations in the newspaper everyday? As for your expat friends, again such a discourse is mostly extreme right, close to fascism. Right wing people would not say islam is a menace to France but an opportunity for cultural, diplomatic, business and romance ties.

Ironcross, i ll just speak about France.
The vast majority of muslim people have no problem with modern and secular society. Immigrants dont need to work is an extreme right thesis. Do you think you can live without working in France? All my friends are serious workers. And the first immigrants came because the capitalists needed cheap labour force, not because of french charity.

No islam is not a HUGE problem in France. And terror cells are very few. Have you heard of a terrorist attack in the last 10 years? Some of them went in Tchetchenia to fight, but that maybe another story if you are aware of it.

About laws, it happens the minister for justice is a muslim woman. Sometimes muslims ask for different treatment but on the whole they follow the republican law. For instance to wear the veil have been prohibited in public schools and allowed in private schools. French muslims dont feel specially bad about it.

It seems u guys are fantasying about what you dont know. It is typical of paranoia. I can give u emails of my friends if you want to talk about that. Maybe it would be good for you to make an analysis. No wonder muslim people feel misunderstood from the USA and are reluctant to follow its policies. The presence of islam in Europe may give us a different perspective from US and you should appreciate it in a multilateral world instead of fearing the islam threat. For instance in a recent poll europeans thought that a major threat to world peace is not islam as a whole but Israel. Probably a different perspective from USA. In a global world we should learn to respect and understand differences not fear them.

Ironcross, as i ve seen u react on the 9/11 thread it seems it has been a trauma to you somehow. But hey you are not a childrend anymore and maybe u should have a critical perspective on USA foreign policies and its karmic result, like the propable link between USA and Pinochet on 9/11. If u think u have the right to invade a country and change the governement because of 9/11, then what is the right of the chilean?

But maybe you are being cynical or ironic on this one.

Good luck to you and hope you dont stay with fear and ignorance.

Peace and love

[zachsan]

The fact is that a majority of french people are attached to this system. Do you think they are stupid?

No. But they are whiny, and they smell bad. Good cooking though.

[doc]

Doc, riots do not happen every day. And the jails in the USA are more crowded than in France though you dont have any muslims. How do you explain that?

We have illegal unemployed Mexicans, Latins and Asians. A huge drug problem. And mafia's with originations from various parts of the world.

I personally have nothing against Muslims. I have problems with people who break the law. Just FYI, Russboasia ITC in Thailand, my school out there, employs only Muslims. I find them to be very loyal, honest, and dependable people.

[liutangsanzang]

Dear doc, another question i d like to ask.

U often insist on the ignorance of people. Does that contradict ur confidence in a free market economi that on such basis might be irrational? Doesnt ignorance of economical actors impli necessiti of a more rational actor like the state, which would bring u closer to socialism?

[doc]

You're assuming that the "state" is a more rational being than the combined masses of the people. Which, is not a good assumption. History has proven time and time again that socialism, fascism, or dictatorships (where the masses are controlled by a few) is not effective.

[liutangsanzang]

Depends again on ur definition of socialism.

The socialism you blame seems more to be political communism. And even if it is was a political failure, the economy was not such a disaster. Economically it might have not been rich, but it was also not absolute poverty and there was more equality.

As socialism in the way we call it in Europe, that is to say social democracy, northern europe countries or France and Germany, and to certain extent other european countries, have been inspired by socialism without major political or economical damage.

So on the whole state has proven his rationality in economy. It might not be super rational but it might be more rational because of its wider perspective. In christian philosophy it might be closer to what is called the Common Good.

Isnt the present crisis proving that the state is seen as a rational actor that is needed to regulate the irrationality of the markets?

[doc]

Don't forget that in the US, the "state" was partially to blame for this mess. Carter, Clinton and Bush all allowed legislation, predominantly brought forth and controlled by the Democrats, that allowed banks and Wall Street to get into this financial disaster.

I see how well "social democracy" in the northern countries (Sweden) works. I like it. The hard working people who really make money, only work half the year to avoid getting their tax rate up to prohibitive levels, and then go to Thailand with their families and live in small shit houses for the other half of the year. With their tax rates hitting over ninety percent when they get to a certain level of income, it doesn't make sense to work more and make more money.

So they lay on a beach.

Not too shabby. Not very productive overall, but not too shabby....

[liutangsanzang]

U already gave ur example about Swedish people not working half a year. So you think in a buddhist perspective that having hollidays in Thailand is too much suffering for these rich people?

[doc]

They're not rich.

They probably have less money than you.

It's just that when they hit a certain level of income, there's no point working anymore, because it puts them into a higher tax bracket (that takes all that extra work "money" away from them)