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Kagyu buddhism (Tibetan Buddhism)

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  • #16
    Doc,

    may i doubt you really doubt? For instance when you eat chicken or fish do you doubt you are doing the best thing in the world to serve non violence? Doubt is a wonderful and deep practice but is often not realized. Try this pratice when you eat chicken, it might lead you to absolute non violence.

    Djon Ma,
    about seeing the lama as enlightened, i think this practice has its beauty and danger. To see him as a representative of the buddha can help one's devotion and energy. But at the same time, if the lama is not enlightened why see him as enlightened? Again Tibetans spread illusions in place of reality.

    You also say that there is no real magic in vajrayana. But take the tsok offering of meat. How do you know you are going to liberate the animal by your prayers? Is it really rational belief.
    It is like the powa stories. They say the high lamas can kill people so to stop them from creating suffering and going to a realm where they can be taught. Isn t it some kind of magic? How do you rationally know it is true?
    And it is even quite contrary to the Theravada teaching of Angulimala sutta where a murderer is saved from death by the buddha in order to teach him.
    http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipit....086.than.html

    Bloody-handed
    I used to be,
    renowned as Angulimala.
    See my going for refuge!
    Uprooted is [craving],
    the guide to becoming.

    Peace and love
    Namo Guan Yin Pusa / Dont create suffering / Dont harm animals!

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by liutangsanzang View Post

      I know that in tibetan buddhism you have to see your lama has enlightened, as a representative of the buddha. It is very peculiar to Vajrayana. You do not have such claims in Theravada to my knowledge. In Theravada they insist on the "good friend".
      I wouldn't be too sure about that.
      I attended a lecture last night on Bodhisattvas given by a Lama travelling through here in Austin. A lot of the lecture involved the topic of enlightenment and a sort of 6 (could have been 7) point plan as to how one can attain it. after thinking a bit about what he was saying, I decided that I knew what my question was going to be for the Q&A.

      When it was my turn to ask a question, I verified with the lama (through his translator) that in Tibetan buddhism, there is a method or some kind of path that they believe is the path that leads to enlightenment, and that there is a path that an enlightened being would follow.
      I also verified that the Geshi (pron.?) knows and practices these paths.

      Then I asked him if he believes himself to be an enlightened being.

      The response to my question was partially predictable, but still rather interesting. He took the question like a champ. The rest of the audience looked at me as if I had just taken my pants off and waved my dick in his face.

      His initial response, as I suspected, was to reiterate that he practices the teachings of his religion- purity of mind speech and body, renunciation of the 6 delusions, following the 4 noble truths and such.

      So I said to the translator,

      "Then the Lama believes he follows the path to enlightenment, or possibly the path of a buddha?"

      He responded with a yes, and i followed up-

      "But is the Lama enlightened?"

      A couple of the audience chuckled at my insistence. The Lama himself took very kindly to my question, and took just a short moment before answering through his translator.

      "No. I do not believe so"

      I found that interesting. To be honest, I did not know what kind of answer I would get. I had actually doubted I would get a yes/no answer, so I was pleasantly surprised when he answered the way that he did.

      Comment


      • #18
        great story, dog.....
        ZhongwenMovies.com

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        • #19
          Originally posted by liutangsanzang View Post
          Doc,

          may i doubt you really doubt?
          I always doubt.

          In fact, if you read the site from over ten years ago, you'll find a regular quote from me in the forum. Advice I give to people all the time.

          "Always question".

          I give it to you now.
          Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

          "You're just a jaded cynical mother****er...." Jeffpeg

          (more comments in my User Profile)
          russbo.com


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          • #20
            Liutansanzhang,


            Have you traveled much in Tibet? If so, was it a guided tour or were you able to travel there freely.

            Also, if it was not a guided tour, how did you manage to arrange something like that?

            Comment


            • #21
              I traveled there back in, oh, 1999? Right after Princess Diana got knocked off. I was on a personal tour, arranged, with difficulty because I was in a group of less than 20 (it was just me). Had to get special permission from China to go.

              Fantastic place. Shame the Chinese are ruining it.
              Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

              "You're just a jaded cynical mother****er...." Jeffpeg

              (more comments in my User Profile)
              russbo.com


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              • #22
                I ve been in tibetan zones in Yunnan and Sichuan. For this places you dont need a permit, it is not like the Tibet Autonomous region. Ypu can travel freely in Yunnan and Sichuan, might be a little different in TAR> But India has also its limited access areas. I could speak a little with people and lamas, as far as our chinese let us. I ve spend some time in a tibetan family near the river Mekong in Yunnan.

                I love Tibet, its religion and art. A very beautiful place but a complicated history. I would recommand a trip there if you go China. It is very inspirational to see so many lamas. Their devotion is very beautiful even if i question some aspects of their religion, like the habit of meat eating. Their painting are quite psychedelic and beautiful, certainly one of the most beautiful i ve ever seen with Indian art.

                Doc, so do you also doubt when you eat that fish? Do you know fishes are kind of taboo for tibetans, because you kill a living being for a small amount of food?
                Namo Guan Yin Pusa / Dont create suffering / Dont harm animals!

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                • #23
                  Just wondering why you say Tibet has a complicated history.

                  What is so complicated about it?
                  Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

                  "You're just a jaded cynical mother****er...." Jeffpeg

                  (more comments in my User Profile)
                  russbo.com


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                  • #24
                    Here are some historical points of views about tibetan history. I dont hold them as absolute truths, there migh be interpretation, propaganda or symbols.

                    The king Songsten Gampo of Tibet attacked the Tang dinasty. The tibetans invaded Xi'an. The sect of the Sakya's were the religious patrons of the Mongols who invaded China. The 5 Dalai Lama came in power with the support of the Mongols and made war to the Kagyus. The Gelug sect supported religiously the Mandchus who colonized China.

                    Tibet relation with China is not very simple. It can be seen as a violent one. It is a western fantasy to see Tibet as a pure spiritual land opposed to the bad materialist chinese. It is a kind of propaganda used to create an enemy in order to serve western's goal and need for power. We have seen that recently in the use of information during the 2008 tibetan crisis.

                    Yet i am still very inspired by tibetan's religion. The Kagyu sect has a whole of important practices such as Powa, consciousness transfer, lucid dreaming or Tumo, inner heat. Its tantric approach and quite unorthodox buddhism wakes up one mind from habit patterns. But one has to be aware about the tibetan's contradictions.
                    Namo Guan Yin Pusa / Dont create suffering / Dont harm animals!

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Well, after reading some Tibetan history on Purdue's university website, I don't see how you can say that Tibet's relationship with China has been "a violent one". Well, then again, Chinese history for the past two thousand years has had its times of violence, and there has been some episodes of violence with Tibet, but I think its a stretch to define their relationship as "violent".

                      Here is a good summary of Tibetan history, from the NY Times. Not exactly my favorite newspaper as it tends to be liberal, but, intelligent nonetheless.

                      FOR many Tibetans, the case for the historical independence of their land is unequivocal. They assert that Tibet has always been and by rights now ought to be an independent country. China’s assertions are equally unequivocal: Tibet became a part of China during Mongol rule and its status as a part of China has never changed. Both of these assertions are at odds with Tibet’s history.

                      The Tibetan view holds that Tibet was never subject to foreign rule after it emerged in the mid-seventh century as a dynamic power holding sway over an Inner Asian empire. These Tibetans say the appearance of subjugation to the Mongol rulers of the Yuan Dynasty in the 13th and 14th centuries, and to the Manchu rulers of China’s Qing Dynasty from the 18th century until the 20th century, is due to a modern, largely Western misunderstanding of the personal relations among the Yuan and Qing emperors and the pre-eminent lamas of Tibet. In this view, the lamas simply served as spiritual mentors to the emperors, with no compromise of Tibet’s independent status.

                      In China’s view, the Western misunderstandings are about the nature of China: Western critics don’t understand that China has a history of thousands of years as a unified multinational state; all of its nationalities are Chinese. The Mongols, who entered China as conquerers, are claimed as Chinese, and their subjugation of Tibet is claimed as a Chinese subjugation.

                      Here are the facts. The claim that Tibet entertained only personal relations with China at the leadership level is easily rebutted. Administrative records and dynastic histories outline the governing structures of Mongol and Manchu rule. These make it clear that Tibet was subject to rules, laws and decisions made by the Yuan and Qing rulers. Tibet was not independent during these two periods. One of the Tibetan cabinet ministers summoned to Beijing at the end of the 18th century describes himself unambiguously in his memoirs as a subject of the Manchu emperor.

                      But although Tibet did submit to the Mongol and Manchu Empires, neither attached Tibet to China. The same documentary record that shows Tibetan subjugation to the Mongols and Manchus also shows that China’s intervening Ming Dynasty (which ruled from 1368 to 1644) had no control over Tibet. This is problematic, given China’s insistence that Chinese sovereignty was exercised in an unbroken line from the 13th century onward.

                      The idea that Tibet became part of China in the 13th century is a very recent construction. In the early part of the 20th century, Chinese writers generally dated the annexation of Tibet to the 18th century. They described Tibet’s status under the Qing with a term that designates a “feudal dependency,” not an integral part of a country. And that’s because Tibet was ruled as such, within the empires of the Mongols and the Manchus. When the Qing dynasty collapsed in 1911, Tibet became independent once more.

                      From 1912 until the founding of the People’s Republic of China in 1949, no Chinese government exercised control over what is today China’s Tibet Autonomous Region. The Dalai Lama’s government alone ruled the land until 1951.

                      Marxist China adopted the linguistic sleight of hand that asserts it has always been a unitary multinational country, not the hub of empires. There is now firm insistence that “Han,” actually one of several ethnonyms for “Chinese,” refers to only one of the Chinese nationalities. This was a conscious decision of those who constructed 20th-century Chinese identity. (It stands in contrast to the Russian decision to use a political term, “Soviet,” for the peoples of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.)

                      There is something less to the arguments of both sides, but the argument on the Chinese side is weaker. Tibet was not “Chinese” until Mao Zedong’s armies marched in and made it so.

                      Elliot Sperling is the director of the Tibetan Studies program at Indiana University’s department of Central Eurasia Studies.
                      Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

                      "You're just a jaded cynical mother****er...." Jeffpeg

                      (more comments in my User Profile)
                      russbo.com


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                      • #26
                        Well i dont claim to have any truth on that, just questions.

                        But just take the case of the Sakyapas being religious mentor to the Mongols. What exactly did the lamas teach to this khans that have been among the most blood thirsty men in history? Could they be just diplomats and advocate a little compassion? Or couldnt they be more radical and criticize their war thirsty attitude? I m afraid the lamas have compromised too much with the violence of the mongols.

                        I was on this chinese bus the other day and there was this gongfu movie during the Qing dinasty. At some point some lamas appeared doing gong fu as allies of the Mandchus. I think this summarize one perception the chinese have on tibetan history. It might be false but some can interpret tibetan s history as an history of violence towards China.

                        But that is interpretation of history, not ultimate truth. To get ultimate truth on this you must get to some high state of meditation, if it is possible...
                        Namo Guan Yin Pusa / Dont create suffering / Dont harm animals!

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by liutangsanzang View Post
                          Well i dont claim to have any truth on that, just questions.

                          But just take the case of the Sakyapas being religious mentor to the Mongols. What exactly did the lamas teach to this khans that have been among the most blood thirsty men in history? Could they be just diplomats and advocate a little compassion? Or couldnt they be more radical and criticize their war thirsty attitude? I m afraid the lamas have compromised too much with the violence of the mongols.

                          I was on this chinese bus the other day and there was this gongfu movie during the Qing dinasty. At some point some lamas appeared doing gong fu as allies of the Mandchus. I think this summarize one perception the chinese have on tibetan history. It might be false but some can interpret tibetan s history as an history of violence towards China.

                          But that is interpretation of history, not ultimate truth. To get ultimate truth on this you must get to some high state of meditation, if it is possible...
                          Dear god, tell me you did not just reference a kungfu movie. For the love of all that is sacred and holy in the ten directions and three times....
                          "For some reason I'm in a good mood today. I haven't left the house yet, though. "

                          "fa hui, you make buddhism sexy." -Zachsan

                          "Friends don't let friends do Taekwondo." -Nancy Reagan

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                          • #28
                            Liu, I am struck by a lack of consistency in your actions.

                            When it comes to sovereignty over Tibet, I have found the issue to be a difficult one to research. Who has the so-called "right to rule" that area is an answer I don't know what the available information qualifies most people to answer. The political and historical portion of the intellect and rationale that circulates about the issue makes it impossible to make an objective judgment. In my personal view, no governing body has the right to claim possession of any land at all.


                            But here's what I have come to believe.

                            China is, as of today, an aggressive nation with expansion at the forefront of its agenda.

                            Tibet, according to the historical view of the Tibetans, constitutes roughly a 3rd of modern China

                            It borders four nations, and makes it very easy to access a number of other nearby nations.

                            It is a military vantage point due to its elevation and terrain.

                            If you control Tibet, you control:

                            1- An unfathomable abundance of natural resources. The Chinese know and are in the process of exploiting these.

                            2- The water Supply not only to China, but to the nearby nations of India (believe it or not), Burma, Laos, Cambodia, and Vietnam.

                            The motives behind a military takeover of such a place are, in my opinion, blatantly obvious. You know as well as I do why nations do this.



                            This is what I have been told by the exiled monks I have been hanging out with recently:

                            To my understanding, you are not allowed to travel in most of Tibet. The places that you are allowed to travel in you may only do so with a Chinese tour guide. Secret police (often dressed as monks) living amongst the population will, to my understanding, make sure of this.

                            Tibetan culture is being eradicated. If this is news to you, i suggest you look outside your window.

                            The Tibetans are forced to learn Chinese in school

                            If you mention the Dalai Lama you can get thrown in prison.

                            If you possess a picture, even a thumbnail, of the dalai lama you can get thrown in prison.

                            If you are caught writing Tibetan writing, even in your home, you can get thrown in prison.

                            The refugees I know are not able to communicate with their relatives in Tibet, as they are under surveillance and any communication with them poses a threat to those families living in Tibet.


                            To point out the Khans as examples of Tibetan violence in response to the brutality that the Chinese exercise on these people is quite a joke. You know exactly what is going on there, but lack the courage to speak out against it.

                            It is interesting to me that you defend and sugar-coat this kind of cultural genocide, and then turn a thread on animal forms to a preaching spot for vegetarianism.

                            You talk a lot of Buddhist precepts. The monks I have been talking to tell me that the Tibetan word for a Buddhist is a word that means "Insider". They place an enormous emphasis on finding truth from within. In fact, I have found it to be a rather ubiquitous element within Buddhism to find true happiness within yourself, without a dependence on external things.

                            I recommend you take this teaching to heart when examining the aggressive (and extremely selective) way that you preach on this forum.

                            Ask yourself:

                            Why does Liu depend on the approval and compliance of others for something he feels is so true?

                            Why is it that he is attempting to teach others, claiming that they wont listen, but is unable to listen and learn anything himself? That's it? Black belt is enough?

                            It seems that you are using your Buddhist views as a tool of co-dependence rather than as a vessel of learning.

                            I know that in a way I am erring in writing this post. It's okay. I will take this bit of negative Karma to hopefully produce a lot more good.

                            Look outside your window, my friend. You may find that it is built into a wall of illusion.

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                            • #29
                              China wants Tibet for one reason.

                              It is a natural border between the low flat plateau of China and India. Imagine if India had control of Tibet: they could overrun China in days. The Himalayas form a wonderful natural military barrier.
                              Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

                              "You're just a jaded cynical mother****er...." Jeffpeg

                              (more comments in my User Profile)
                              russbo.com


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                              • #30
                                Dear Friend,

                                as i told you i ve been a little in tibetan areas and went to many teachings. I just point out the situation is not black and white and it might have karmic causes coming from the past. I did tend to idealize Tibet as many westerner do but with research and time spent in tibetan zone, all i can say is that the situation and history are complicated.

                                For instance, you say you are not allowed to have a picture of the Dalai Lama in china. But i ve seen many pictures of the dalai lama in China. And of the Karmapa that recently fled to India.

                                How do you explain that if it is was black and white?

                                You say tibetan culture is being eradicated. But i can assure you there are many temples where the tibetans can practice their religion and that monks even seems to have free medical assistance, contrary to most people, and get paid by the chinese government. The chinese government has rebuilt many monasteries. It is not the cultural revolution anymore. Look at the good signs. Lhassa is not the whole of Tibet.

                                You say the tibetans are forced to learn chinese in school. But their religious head, the Dalai Lama does not ask for independance. So of course in his point of view it is a beneficial thing they learn chinese. Take a view on interdependance for that. The Dalai Lama says Tibet will benefit from chinese economic growth and for that they need to learn chinese. They can still talk tibetans and from what i understand tibetan is also taught at school. It is not Franco's rule over Basque country anymore.

                                You cannot write tibetan at home? Never heard of this. Are you sure you are not talking about the genocide of indians by americans?

                                Now i ve never said that chinese presence is without problem, specially in the past. I dont need to speak again what is well known in the west. But why would one take the McCarthy propaganda for granted? From what you write about Dalai Lama pictures, cultural genocide, being forced to learn chinese, not being able to write tibetans, i would see quite a hard propaganda in this thoughts. They do not correspond to the reality i have witnessed. Many would recognize that human rights in Tibet before 1949 were quite of backward, that there was a kind of slavery. Why not speak of the evil lamas and tibetan landlords? Why only speak of the evil chinese? Is it so evil nowadays? The Dalai Lama does not ask for independance and are you aware how many tibetans want it? I am not. Some need an enemy in order to exist and they make china this enemy. The Dalai Lama does not go that way and says that Tibet needs China as well as China needs Tibet spirtuality.

                                And sorry if i am not coherent but this world, and USA, do not seem to be very coherent to me, so i make mistakes as well as the world does. Thanks for your criticism on me being unlogic, i ll meditate on this.

                                But for Tibet i assure you i ve spent a lot of time exploring it and if my view is not correct at least it comes from many observations. Right now i m even reading a Dalai Lama book about how to forgive. And he insists we should not have any hate or even anger against the chinese government or people. I used to be angry with Chinese because of Tibet. Studying and travelling and being married with a chinese woman has changed my perception. If you love tibet and tibetan buddhism, go there, you will love it.

                                Peace and love
                                Last edited by liutangsanzang; 05-16-2008, 05:17 PM.
                                Namo Guan Yin Pusa / Dont create suffering / Dont harm animals!

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