Hara-kari…

[RJW]

Yeah, I was kindah goin' for more positive quotes; there is a lot of good in Islam.
While I'm no beauty queen wish for world peace bull****, I still like to think kill crazy extremist idiots are in the minority & 1 day will smarten up or kill themselves off. It just PISSES me off how kids are used in this while the leaders like Osama aren't about to sacrifice themselves.

[RJW]

Naked with the most dangerous men in the world…Inshallah.

Transcript from VisionTV's "360 Vision", air date Nov. 19 2003

>>Noelle Richardson: IT IS KIND OF EASY TO FIGURE OUT WHY CANADIANS WANT TO KNOW MORE ABOUT THE MIDDLE EAST, SEPTEMBER 11th, SUICIDE BOMBINGS, IRAQ, AND THE SO-CALLED WAR ON TERROR.

DR. CYNTHIA MAHMOOD IS AN EXPERT IN WHY PEOPLE FIGHT AND DIE FOR RELIGION. SHE IS AN ANTHROPOLOGIST AT NOTRE DAME UNIVERSITY, AND ADVISES GOVERNMENTS IN CANADA, THE U.S. AND BRITAIN. I SPOKE WITH HER IN TORONTO RECENTLY.

>> Noelle: YOU HAVE SPOKEN WITH THE SO-CALLED TERRORISTS, WHAT CAN YOU TELL US ABOUT THEM, WHAT YOU'VE LEARNED FROM THEM.

>> The Doctor: ONE OF THE THINGS I HAVE LEARNED IS THESE ARE PEOPLE WHO IN FACT -- LET ME SAY ONE THING, FLAT OUT -- ALL MILITARY PSYCHOLOGISTS AND MILITARY HISTORIANS HAVE COME TO AN AGREEMENT THAT THERE IS ONLY A SMALL PERCENTAGE OF HUMAN BEINGS IN ANY CULTURE WHO ACTUALLY WANT TO KILL AND ENGAGE IN VIOLENCE. IT IS ABOUT 2% OF HUMAN BEINGS. TOP MILITARY THINKERS IN OUR OWN CONSULT AGREE WITH THIS. IT IS HARD TO TRAIN SOLDIERS TO DO THAT. ONLY A SMALL PERCENTAGE WANT TO DO THAT AND THEY'RE PSYCHOPATHS. THEY'VE BEEN BRUTALIZED AND SUFFERED INDIGNITIES. THEY HAVE NOT COME TO THAT POSITION EASILY. WHEN WE DEAL WITH THEM, DEALING WITH THEM OUT OF A POSITION OF VIOLENCE, PHYSICAL VIOLENCE OR POLITICAL VIOLENCE OR PSYCHOLOGICAL VIOLENCE IS NOT GOING TO WORK WELL. THESE ARE THE TOUGH GUYS OF THE WORLD. WE MAY ACT AS TOUGH AS WE LIKE. IT WILL PROVOKE THEM TO BE EVEN TOUGHER. AS WE KNOW, THEY ARE PEOPLE WILLING TO DIE FOR THEIR CAUSES, THEY'RE WILLING TO SACRIFICE THEIR OWN TOWNS, THEIR OWN KINSPEOPLE AND THEIR OWN COUNTRIES FOR THEIR CAUSES. THEREFORE, THAT TYPE OF STANCE WILL NOT WORK. WHAT ONE HAS TO DO, AND I HAVE FOUND IT ON THE INDIVIDUAL LEVEL CERTAINLY, IS TO BE WILLING TO APPROACH THEM WITH NON-VIOLENCE. I COME FROM THE MENNONITE TRADITION, WHICH IS A TRADITION OF NON-VIOLENCE, AND THAY HAVE MARTYRED THEMSELVES FOR NON-VIOLENCE, AS CHRIST WALKED NON-VIOLENTLY IN A VERY VIOLENT WORLD. I KNOW THE REASON I HAVE BEEN ABLE TO PERSONALLY BE IN DIALOGUE WITH SOME OF THE MOST VIOLENT PEOPLE IN THE WORLD IS I'M WILLING TO BE PERSONALLY VULNERABLE. NOT APPROACH THEM WITH A BULLET-PROOF VEST AND BODYGUARDS, BUT TO GO IN EFFECT NAKED, WITH ONLY MYSELF, FACE-TO-FACE. THAT'S NOT THE WAY OUR LEADERS ARE USED TO THINKING.

>> Noelle: YOU GRANTED THEM A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF TRUST?

>> The Doctor: YES I DID. I TOOK VERY MUCH A LEAP OF FAITH. WE'RE CALLED UPON AS SPIRIT BEINGS TO DO. IF YOU TAKE THAT LEAP AND PUT YOURSELF IN THE HANDS OF THE OTHER PERSON, WHICH IS WHAT I THINK BEING HUMAN IS REALLY ABOUT, YOU HAVE TO TRUST THEY WILL RECIPROCATE IT. IF I MAY TELL A VERY BRIEF STORY, ONE TIME I WAS IN THE MOUNTAINS OF NORTHERN PAKISTAN WITH A GROUP OF ISLAMIC FIGHTERS, AND WE WERE WALKING SINGLE FILE ALONG A PATH, I WAS THE ONLY WOMAN PROBABLY FOR HUNDREDS OF MILES AROUND. SUDDENLY THE INDIVIDUAL IN FRONT OF ME SPUN AROUND ON THE PATH AND POINTED HIS AK47 AT ME, AND JABBED ME IN THE CHEST AND HE SHOUTED OUT "WE LOVE SADDAM HUSSEIN, U.S.A. NO." AND I JUST STOOD FROZEN, AND EVERYBODY JUST FROZE ON THE PATH AROUND ME. SOMEHOW I WAS TOTALLY UNAFRAID AT THAT MOMENT, AND I JUST SAID TO HIM, "I'M CRITICAL OF A LOT OF THINGS THE U.S. DOES AS WELL, AND MAYBE WE SHOULD TALK ABOUT IT." I DON'T KNOW WHY, BUT I SAID THIS, VERY CALMLY, AND HE STOOD THERE, AND EVERYONE STOOD. SUDDENLY HE SAT DOWN CROSS-LEGGED ON THE GROUND AND PUT HIS GUN DOWN, AND EVERYONE SAT CROSS-LEGGED AND WE STARTED TALKING ABOUT SADDAM HUSSEIN. AND SOMEBODY STARTED MAKING TEA ON A LITTLE FIRE AND WE STARTED DRINKING TEA. AND THE CALL TO PRAYER CAME, AND THEY HAVE SAUDI MADE WATCHES THAT CALL TO PRAYER, AND THEY STARTED DOING THE ISLAMIC PRAYER AND I BOWED DOWN WITH THEM, THEY KNOW I'M NOT A MUSLIM, BUT I BOWED IN RESPECT TO THEIR TRADITION. I BOWED MY HEAD TOWARDS MECCA, AND WHEN THEY WERE DONE WITH THE PRAYERS, I WAS WEARING A CROSS. WHEN WE HEAR THEY HATE CHRISTIANS, THIS IS A MYTH. THEY DON'T, THEY RESPECT CHRISTIANS DEEPLY. AND HE REACHED OVER AND TOUCHED THE CROSS ON MY CHEST. THEY HAVE A DEEP RESPECT FOR WOMEN, CONTRARY TO WHAT WE HEAR, THEY NEVER TOUCH WOMEN, BUT HE REACHED AND TOUCHED THE CROSS AND I TOOK IT AS A GESTURE OF RECOGNITION I RESPECTED HIS FAITH AND HE WAS SEEING MINE. I KNEELED DOWN IN OUR CHRISTIAN PRAYER, AND HE KNEELED DOWN RIGHT BY MY SIDE, AND SLOWLY ALL OF THE GUYS KNEELED DOWN ON THIS CLIFFSIDE. I DON'T WANT TO MAKE TOO MUCH OF A SINGLE MOMENT LIKE THIS. BUT THIS SHOWS YOU THAT THESE ARE SOME OF THE MOST VIOLENT, SCARY PEOPLE ON EARTH. AND I DON'T DENY WHAT THEY'RE CAPABLE OF AND PROBABLY HAVE DONE. HAD I DONE SOMETHING DIFFERENT, I COULD HAVE BEEN SHOT. I'M NOT A FOOL. BUT THEY'RE CAPABLE OF A SIGNIFICANT HUMAN GESTURE OF EMPATHY. I THINK WE CAN MAGNIFY THE SPACE OVER WHICH THOSE GESTURES ARE POSSIBLE, AND NOT ONLY MAGNIFY THE SPACE OF GUNS THAT WE SO ADAPT AT DOING.

>> Noelle: WHAT DO YOU THINK IS THE SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT THING WE IN THE WEST NEED TO UNDERSTAND ABOUT THE ARAB WORLD AND VICE VERSA, IN ORDER TO REACH THE KIND OF COMING TOGETHER AND UNDERSTANDING AND SHARING AND RESPECT THAT YOU JUST DESCRIBED?

>> The Doctor: IT MAY SOUND SILLY TO SAY IT, BUT I GUESS THE FIRST THING IS DROP THE FEAR LEVEL. DROP THE ADRENALIN, THE HEART POUNDING, THESE ARE JUST HUMAN BEINGS LIKE US, AND ALTHOUGH RELIGION IS SO IMPORTANT TO UNDERSTAND BECAUSE IT IS WHO THEY ARE, DON'T LET THE FIRST RECOURSE BE TO OPEN UP THE KORAN. THE REASON I SAY IT IS THE MINUTE THOSE TWIN TOWERS STARTED FALLING, YOU KNOW, I TEACH AT A UNIVERSITY, OUR UNIVERSITY, EVERY UNIVERSITY, WE STARTED HOLDING SEMINARS ABOUT ISLAM IS A RELIGION OF PEACE OR A RELIGION OF WAR. EVERY UNIVERSITY IN THE WEST STARTED HOLDING THESE SEMINARS. YOU TELL ME, WHEN TIMOTHY MCVEIGH STARTED BLOWING UP THE BUILDING, DID WE DO SEMINARS ABOUT CHRISTIANITY, A RELIGION OF WAR OR PEACE? NO, WE DIDN'T. THIS IS NOT A QUESTION OF WHETHER ISLAM IS A RELIGION OF WAR OR PEACE. EVERYONE IN THE MUSLIM WORLD THOUGHT IT WAS HORRIFIC. SO IT HAS TO DO WITH ISLAM, CERTAINLY. TIMOTHY MCVEIGH WAS BROUGHT UP A CHRISTIAN AND IT HAD SOMETHING TO DO WITH THAT, TOO, BUT LET'S NOT IMMEDIATELY EXITIZE THESE PEOPLE.

>> Noelle: WHY DID YOU GO INTO THIS LINE OF WORK?

>> The Doctor: I WENT INTO IT BECAUSE I STARTED AS AN ANTHROPOLOGIST, AND I STARTED STUDYING INDIA AND SOUTH ASIA, AND I WAS FASCINATED BY BUDDHISM, AND I GREW UP MENNONITE, AND IT IS A PASSIVIST TRADITION, AND I STARTED STUDYING BUDDHISM, AND I REALIZED A LOT HAD BEEN WIPED OUT EVEN THOUGH THEY WERE PASSIVISTS, AND THEN I STARTED SEEING IN INDIA, LOTS OF PEOPLE TODAY ARE ALSO BEING KILLED AND SOME ARE THEM ARE FIGHTING BACK, INCLUDING SIKHS AND SOME MUSLIMS. I'M FASCINATED, AS A PERSON OF PEACE, I'M FASCINATED BY PEOPLE WHO ARE IN THE MIDDLE OF WARS AND HOW, IN FACT, SOME RELIGIOUS TRADITION FIND WAYS TO JUSTIFY VIOLENCE. I THINK I CAN TALK TO PEOPLE ON THE PERPETRATING SIDES OF VIOLENCE ESPECIALLY BECAUSE THAT IS SO FAR FROM WHO I AM. THAT I FIND IT POSSIBLE TO TALK WITH THEM WITH SOME KIND OF FASCINATION AS WELL AS RESPECT.

>> Noelle: HOW DO YOU KEEP FROM BECOMING DEPRESSED OR DISCOURAGED, BEING FACED WITH ALL THE VIOLENCE AND ALL OF THE WARS AND ALL OF THE CONFLICTS AND ALL OF THE MILITANTS THAT YOU HAVE TO TALK WITH?

>> The Doctor: BECAUSE YOU SEE PEOPLE'S COURAGE, I THINK. I WROTE A BOOK ABOUT THE CONFLICT IN PUNJAB, INVOLVING THE SIKHS, AND I ENDED MY BOOK ON KIND OF A DEPRESSING NOTE BECAUSE SO MANY PEOPLE ON BOTH SIDES OF THAT CONFLICT HAVE BEEN KILLED. I SHOWED THE MANUSCRIPT TO SOME OF THE SIKHS AND THEY SAY WE DON'T LIKE THE WAY YOU ENDED THIS BOOK BECAUSE IT IS SO DEPRESSING, AND I SAID HOW DO YOU WANT ME TO END IT? THEY SAID WE WANT YOU TO END IT POSITIVELY BECAUSE WE ARE FILLED WITH HOPE AND HIGH SPIRITS, AND I SAID HOW CAN YOU FEEL THAT WAY? AND THEY SAID BECAUSE WE HAVE GOD'S LOVE AND WE'RE FULL OF GRACE. SO I ENDED IT LIKE THAT, WITH THEIR WORDS, THAT THEY'RE FILLED WITH THE LOVE OF GOD AND FILLED WITH GOD'S GRACE. SO WHEN YOU SEE PEOPLE LIKE THAT, WHO DESPITE THE CONDITIONS THEY'RE IN -- I MAY FEEL DEPRESSED, I'M A MIDDLE CLASS AMERICAN WITH EVERY PRIVILEGE IN LIFE, EVERY BUILT OF SAFETY. WHAT RIGHT DO WE HAVE TO FEEL DEPRESSED BECAUSE WE SEE IT ON THE NEWS, WHEN THE PEOPLE WHO ARE SUFFERING FROM IT ARE UPLIFTED BY GOD.

>> Noelle: THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US TODAY.

>> The Doctor: THANKS, IT HAS BEEN A PRIVILEGE.

[doc]

OK, RJ, you got me on this.

And the point is?

(I can read this one of two ways...)

[RJW]

(What the hell has any of this to do with suicide? Not a thing, just sort of ended up here.)

As I said I was looking for more positives, there's a lot of good in Islam; the news just tends to focus on the bad, especially now with paranoia being so high. In a taiji symbol there's a little black in the white & a little white in the black. No absolutes, no pure good nor evil.

"THAT THERE IS ONLY A SMALL PERCENTAGE OF HUMAN BEINGS IN ANY CULTURE WHO ACTUALLY WANT TO KILL AND ENGAGE IN VIOLENCE. IT IS ABOUT 2% OF HUMAN BEINGS."

Everybody wants peace even the people who want war want to win so they can spread their kind of peace. When the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics existed their definition of peace was: a time when all nations are subservient to the Soviet Union. Of course that didn't happen and the "evil empire" as President Regan put it, no longer exists--by their own hand. Now we have a new "evil empire" only it's not a country.

"THEY (A GROUP OF ISLAMIC FIGHTERS) STARTED DOING THE ISLAMIC PRAYER AND I BOWED DOWN WITH THEM, THEY KNOW I'M NOT A MUSLIM, BUT I BOWED IN RESPECT TO THEIR TRADITION. I BOWED MY HEAD TOWARDS MECCA, AND WHEN THEY WERE DONE WITH THE PRAYERS, I WAS WEARING A CROSS. WHEN WE HEAR THEY HATE CHRISTIANS, THIS IS A MYTH. THEY DON'T, THEY RESPECT CHRISTIANS DEEPLY. AND HE REACHED OVER AND TOUCHED THE CROSS ON MY CHEST. THEY HAVE A DEEP RESPECT FOR WOMEN, CONTRARY TO WHAT WE HEAR, THEY NEVER TOUCH WOMEN, BUT HE REACHED AND TOUCHED THE CROSS AND I TOOK IT AS A GESTURE OF RECOGNITION I RESPECTED HIS FAITH AND HE WAS SEEING MINE. I KNEELED DOWN IN OUR CHRISTIAN PRAYER, AND HE KNEELED DOWN RIGHT BY MY SIDE, AND SLOWLY ALL OF THE GUYS KNEELED DOWN ON THIS CLIFFSIDE. I DON'T WANT TO MAKE TOO MUCH OF A SINGLE MOMENT LIKE THIS. BUT THIS SHOWS YOU THAT THESE ARE SOME OF THE MOST VIOLENT, SCARY PEOPLE ON EARTH. AND I DON'T DENY WHAT THEY'RE CAPABLE OF AND PROBABLY HAVE DONE. HAD I DONE SOMETHING DIFFERENT, I COULD HAVE BEEN SHOT. I'M NOT A FOOL. BUT THEY'RE CAPABLE OF A SIGNIFICANT HUMAN GESTURE OF EMPATHY."

Not pure evil. And what American wouldn't fight if someone landed in their country, ousting the government because an outside power decided it was no good? How many writers created just such a scenario of Russians attacking & taking the U.S.? Less knee jerk reaction to fear and paranoia and more understanding. I mean that on both sides, the Middle East needs to understand us as well, all they know is American movies & homegrown propaganda. How much do the Chinese know of our life? They've got a pretty warped perception of it, as does much of the world. For all the information we have at our fingertips in the 21st Century we still live in ignorance, some by choice others have no choice. Always keep learning. Seek truth in illusion…

[Lipster]

I gotta take issue with that last bit. I'm not talking about the whole Middle East situation as a whole, simply some of the things that were said in the excerpt. The last sentence of that excerpt was ludicrous.

"BUT THEY'RE CAPABLE OF A SIGNIFICANT HUMAN GESTURE OF EMPATHY."

Great. And therefore?

You say 'not pure evil', RJ. Wow. So what? How does highlighting a poignant moment and establishing the fact that they're not 'pure' evil (what an achievement, gold star for them), and 'capable of human empathy' exonerate them in any way, shape or form? Himmler abhorred cruelty to animals - what an angel, huh? Perhaps we should write articles about every time he objected against beating the dog...to perhaps illustrate the fact that he wasn't that bad...

The excerpt’s saying that had she done something out of place, she could have been gunned down. She didn't, so she wasn't. Yet it all seems to have been switched round to make out as if this is all so praiseworthy. Bit of a flaw there.

What exactly was the point of that excerpt? To prove the point that they're not 'pure' evil? So what, that doesn't mean a thing - how many things are 'pure, undiluted' evil already? Why does this all of a sudden cast light in their favour? If the serial murderer helps the old lady across the street, would that make you more comfortable hanging out with him? And does it then make him easier to relate to?
There's no one alive who doesn't do the odd kindness or whatnot, no matter how evil they are - that doesn't signify anything at all..

I have no problem with Islam itself, btw, to make it clear. My tone isn't supposed to be harsh, I guess the subject matter is.

Hope this doesn't go off topic, just had to say that...

Peace

[RJW]

Outstanding! And quite correct. I think Hitler liked dogs & I'm sure he loved his mommy but he deserved die. Terrorists should be eradicated, but the Middle East is not all terrorists. I brought the magnifying glass in pretty close on that one just to show "Bad men" could be capable of kindness. When going to war first create a devil. Devils have no good qualities. On the other side of the world we are the devils. How many soldiers were decent people who became "bad" committing atrocities once the killing started? The 1st Christmas in WW I soldiers climbed out of their trenches to play football in the no mans land before going back to killing each other. Which of those men was the bad guy? In Vietnam some soldiers just started shooting all Vietnamese because they couldn't tell who the enemy was. But the American's were the "good" guys right? People are capable of extreme kindness and then turn around and commit unspeakable cruelty. Maybe I'm just hearing too many negative generalizations about Muslims in my little neck of the woods I went the opposite in looking for positives. But hell it got my mind off suicide.

[doc]

I can view this as a poignant moment, just as easily as I can view this as a deluded idiotic one. You can read this Mahmood woman in one of two ways; sincere, sympathetic, and caring, or completely ****ing lost and confused.

But I understand your point as to the whole concept of good and bad. In their mind, they're good. In ours, they're bad. Like everything else in life, it's all a matter of perspective. And majority rule.

[Nightstrike]

interseting.
I have read parts of the koran that repeadedly say to kill unbeleivers...(thinking that it meant kill all non muslims)
But thanks for showing me that verse that says to not kill christians and jews.
if they (the extremists) would just listen to that i think there would be alot less death then.

[xing_jian108]

Has anyone got the dvd of Donnie Yen's "Fist of Fury"? In the audio commentary he is asked about the Japanese putting the sword to their stomach as one character in the movie did. He said, "Well, I guess that's why they lost the war"... Hehe, what a jackass huh? But it may be true. If Chinese are beaten they will learn from it and live to fight another day. Becoming a better warrior. It's honorable to kill yourself if you're a loser in Japan? That's gonna help a lot. It sure helped them in the war, didn't it?

a mi tuo fo
-Xing Jian

[zachsan]

well, they lost the war 'cuz we nuked 'em.

anyway, i think the philosophy is that, if you lose, you can't be trusted to begin with, and you've become useless. but everything was up to the leader in feudal japan, where these traditions came from. and if the leader decided that, even though you lost, you were too useful to lose, he would tell you and you wouldn't commit suicide. this is partly why you would always advise your retainer before you actually did the deed. if the retainer thought that you had your chance and blew it, he'd be merciful enough to let you kill yourself to regain your family's good name. otherwise, you might have a chance to redeem yourself in battle later. it was just another strategic decision.

and that's on the leadership level. that is, you lead troops into battle, and they fail. if you happen to be one of the aforementioned troops, chances are that if you failed, you're dead already. aside from that is just suicide when you know you're as good as dead already.

the chinese, of course, didn't see it this way at all. it's just one of the big differences between old chinese martial philosophy and old japanese martial philosophy: one cared about fighting prowess, spirituality and longevity, and one didn't give a hoot about longevity. then again, you could say that killing the guy running at you with the 3-foot razor blade might be good for your longevity...

- zach