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Current migrational patterns and economics: Why Paris is screwed

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  • Current migrational patterns and economics: Why Paris is screwed

    My French friends here in China claims that Paris is totaly FU**ED ! Americans are the only ones who have this "romantic" view of Paris, so they claim.
    "Winners turn to losers, losers are forgotten..." - A Tribe Called Quest

  • #2
    Yes, Paris has a significant amount of problems, from what I'm told, predominantly due to Chirac's open door policy twenty years ago with respect to the Turks and Muslims. Many came, fell into France's social net, and were thankful.

    Then, they had lots of kids. Who grew up not as thankful, and with more expectations than their parents. Now, if they're not taken care of, they riot. The French police don't enter certain Muslim neighborhoods because French law just doesn't work in those areas. These people are not being productive, are sucking from the social teat, and are not providing tax income to the government.

    As many French and British have told me here in Thailand, it's a mess. In fact, in one of the Thai newspapers recently, when they did a report on donations coming from the three largest Muslim countries that were supporting and building mosques in Thailand, Saudi Arabia, Syria and France were mentioned....

    I hear that Germany and Sweden have similar problems.
    Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

    "You're just a jaded cynical mother****er...." Jeffpeg

    (more comments in my User Profile)
    russbo.com


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    • #3
      Yeah apparently it's a dirty, crime-ridden city.
      Becoming what I've dreamed about.

      Comment


      • #4
        Doc,

        the view you have just described seems to place the responsibility for the marginalisation of French National's of French Colonial descent squarely on their shoulders.

        I'm not so sure that this is fair. Racism towards the immigrants by the "indigenous population", is as obviously responsible for the segregation of opportunity and its ramifications, as they apply to the indigenously French and the immigrants, as are the immigrant populations for not trying to integrate and succeed.

        I say this because well we have a flavour of these issues in the UK, in as far as racial divides and tensions, albeit that there isn't a perception that all immigrants are living off the welfare state. I don't think its healthy to point the finger and hold the immigration populations to blame for this. Especially since you can go to other countries, eg. Canada, the USA, Australia and see to different degrees how much more successfully they have managed immigration and societal integration.

        So I conclude its as much the recipient populations attitude to particular foreigners that cause the problem... and if you want proof of this... just think for a second about the mutually reciprocal aminmosity that exists at cultural level between the English and the French, and all that business in the 1940's where we had to rely on the good old USA to step in and blow the whistle... Europe despite the hundereds of years of civilisation is still very tribal, and adept at projecting its ills onto foreigners and immigrants, so that they don't have to address those ills that actually exist within themselves.

        Chicken

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        • #5
          You're complicating this unnecessarily. It's simple.

          France had a very open welfare state back in the Chirac era. He opened the door to immigrants, much like Carter did with the Cubans back in those times, and much like Bush / Clinton did with the Mexicans here.

          They come. To escape the shit that they lived in. Also in Europe, now with the European union, you have Eastern Europeans migrating, some of whom are bringing criminal activity with them.

          These immigrants do one thing better than the locals. They ****. A lot. And have many children. Big families are common. You typically find this in lower socioeconomic classes.

          Give it twenty years, and their populations grow. In Germany's case, faster than the native Germans, who try to live more responsibly with respect to having children.

          What happens? This ever enlarging group of largely uneducated and lower income level people suck off the social services network, and don't pay taxes to support it. Hospitals and other health care providers, schools, welfare systems, etc, all suffer.

          Paris is a mess with respect to this. The southwest and southeast of America is getting there. Britain is starting to have these issues, Germany and Sweden are having problems with it.

          It has nothing to do with racism. Nothing to do with what descent any of these people have. It has to do with migration of lower income class and educational level peoples to countries that have less restrictive social safety nets.

          It's the economy. It's all about economics. Simple.
          Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

          "You're just a jaded cynical mother****er...." Jeffpeg

          (more comments in my User Profile)
          russbo.com


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          • #6
            Originally posted by Doc
            What happens? This ever enlarging group of largely uneducated and lower income level people suck off the social services network, and don't pay taxes to support it. Hospitals and other health care providers, schools, welfare systems, etc, all suffer.

            Paris is a mess with respect to this. The southwest and southeast of America is getting there. Britain is starting to have these issues, Germany and Sweden are having problems with it.
            Doc, with respect, please leave UK out of this. Our population is oiled by immigrant labour, and believe me if our welfare state was overwhelmed by them we would know about it in our taxes, and its isn't happening. Our indigenous population is so significantly indecline that that economies are facing down a possibly unprecedented dependency ratio as the baby boomers move into their 60s, having not produced enough grandchildren to support them through their old age. Only the baby boomers (of which I think you are nearly one, or certainly of that generation), had the easiest rides of all those presently occupying the UK. They lived through a time when the economy was in a state of expansion, almost continually prospered, and don't understand why their kids (that's my generation) aren't falling on their feet as they did.

            Well one of the outcomes of this, is never quite living up to the expectations of our parents, we think twice about entrenching our percieved failure on the next generation... and the birth rate near collapses. Without immigration in the UK, the UK would be in a significant depression.

            That is also economics Doc.

            The immigrant culture in the UK is that their immigrants work their butts off... give their children a better start in a place with opportunity then they would have had in their originating country, and instill in them an incredible work & prevailing ethic. The 2nd generations then usually clean up in our universtities, and the third are already model citizens. This applies more to some national's immigrants than others, but for example the prediliction for most of the afro-carribean immigrants for uniforms has been their saving grace. Well that and interbreeding...

            The EU is another matter. Our systems, legal and otherwise, are not designed for the Eastern European immigrant criminal at this time, and the 20 years or so that it take Parliment to accommodate them, will have an impact on our crime rates and make the general population less complacent, and this does stoke racism to some nationalities.

            Religious Fundamentalism, is another matter, but again the legislators are dealing with that.

            I suspect Doc that you must be hanging out with some older ,pretty racist types if your "tar them all with the same brush" and the "we should have never let them in in the first place" approach to European Immigration is so. The younger generation in the UK doesn't think like that, and there in lies the hope that the social interation issues will eventually work their way through.

            Still, no doubt, it won't quite get there before you Baby Boomers are pushing up daisys.

            Chicken

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            • #7
              Racism has nothing to do with it. And you confirmed what I said. Your native population is in decline. Your economy is being run by immigrants.

              I don't have a problem with that. I love the mexicans that work for me; I couldn't afford to do it without them. But, that's only part of the issue. With all the good ones that come, many others come that don't assimilate properly into the population. That's where the problems arise.

              Granted, as generations of these immigrants continue, they assimilate language wise. Or used to.... We're seeing in America something new. A British person lecturing an American about immigration, LOL. You guys are just starting to deal with it, my country was created by it. And in the past, the first generations of Italians and Irish had trouble getting assimilated; the next few generations did, and did well. However, now, things are different. We're seeing that in America, we are starting to change our language to fit them. Go into any Home Depot, Wal Mart, etc. More and more shit is in spanish. Call any bank, or other public office. More telephone stuff has spanish options. In fact, I called my bank, of 20 years, and asked them to speak to a manager so that I could wire transfer money to myself; I was forwarded to a completely spanish speaking phone menu.

              Things are changing. People don't assimilate into societies when they immigrate as much as they used to. We see it with the Mexicans who are overwhelming our system in America. The French are seeing it with the Muslims who are overwhelming their society in Paris.

              And from what I hear from my British friends here in Thailand, it's starting to show in Britain, but not that badly.

              Yet.
              Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

              "You're just a jaded cynical mother****er...." Jeffpeg

              (more comments in my User Profile)
              russbo.com


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              • #8
                When I said that "Paris is f**ked" the lower income level sub-burbs are what I was reffering to. The French guy, 17 years old, and his mother, 52, both stated that the city, and many other large French cities, is on a steady decline thanks to these lower income level peoples. Much of what we see in the States of a lower income neighborhood is apparently similar with what is happening in France, but apparenty it's happening in France at a much faster rate, ghettos, gangs, pointless violence, and a faster rate of population increase among these people.

                I'm sure the main downtown of Paris is still a very "romantic" and beautiful place. It's just what makes up the majority of the city, and many large cities in France, is a shitty situation. Not a nice place to be. So I'm told....
                "Winners turn to losers, losers are forgotten..." - A Tribe Called Quest

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Chicken
                  I don't think its healthy to point the finger and hold the immigration populations to blame for this. Especially since you can go to other countries, eg. Canada, the USA, Australia and see to different degrees how much more successfully they have managed immigration and societal integration.
                  Yes, the US has done a WONDERFUL job with "immigration" these past twenty years. Which is why Las Vegas is "officially" 25 percent Mexican (and unofficially probably 40 or higher, most of whom are not paying taxes, who are driving without insurance, and who use up the health care system for free. California is a basket case because of this, and Nevada / Arizona are fast on its heels. Many other parts of the US are also struggling under the financial burden of these people. The ever increasing Chinese immigrant and illegal population, ever notorious for running cash businesses to avoid US taxation, are just another example. There are areas in California where Chinese signs overwhelm English ones. Immigration in the US these past twenty years are far different than immigration over the previous eighty. Far different.

                  Canada's social system is nothing to be proud about; just ask any of the thousands and thousands that drive to the US to get their "emergency" heart surgery. Most of them don't want to wait the one to two years to get their procedures done. They have a burgeoning Chinese population that is out of control in the western part of Canada, to the point where they finally got very strict with their immigration.

                  Australia handles their immigration well, from what I've been told. They keep people that they don't want, out, LOL.

                  I don't know where you get your information from; you're right, you must be young, or an immigrant yourself to feel the way you do. Or, you just don't see these things around you.

                  And for your information, I am not a baby boomer. Nor are most of my friends and contacts here in Thailand. I speak with younger (and older), educated, well to do, businessmen from all over Europe, on a regular basis. There are many of them here in Thailand; many come here, for various reasons, one of which, I hear predominantly, being, getting away from the shit that's happening in their home countries.
                  Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

                  "You're just a jaded cynical mother****er...." Jeffpeg

                  (more comments in my User Profile)
                  russbo.com


                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Doc
                    Canada's social system is nothing to be proud about; just ask any of the thousands and thousands that drive to the US to get their "emergency" heart surgery. Most of them don't want to wait the one to two years to get their procedures done. They have a burgeoning Chinese population that is out of control in the western part of Canada, to the point where they finally got very strict with their immigration.
                    Never said that Canada's social system is anything to be proud of... and can't see what that's got to do with the discussion on migration and cultural integration?

                    Originally posted by Doc
                    Australia handles their immigration well, from what I've been told. They keep people that they don't want, out, LOL.
                    Indeed right from the very beginning they were very picky about who turned up, and have not been pursecuted at all by the immigrants.

                    Everyone who is in the US unless native indian, is an immigrant relatively speaking. What gets me is that you think you have more right to be in the states than someone who's relatives were occupying that land mass for 100,000s of years before yours were.

                    Doc I'm not an immigrant, but I'm married to one, and most of our friends are also immigrants or of immigrant descent, and in London less than 25% of the people you meet's relatives were in the UK 70 years ago. But does that imply that we should kick out 75% of the people there? I don't think so, as I think we are a better country on account of the diversity that these new-English people brought with them.

                    Surely you should get this Doc, I mean imagine England just with more Englishness... its hard to conceive and quite frightning. Imaging the UK without curry, for example, it would be such a lesser place, and it was, what we have now is vast improvement.

                    So I couldn't disagree with you more, and I also am amused that you turn out to be one of those anti-illegal immigration crusaders.... we call it "grumpy old man" syndrome over here.

                    Chicken

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Well, the problem is one of terminology. I'm an American; I was born there, my forefathers are of Eastern European descent. I'm still a native.

                      The Mexicans that are flooding the southern US, are not immigrants. They are illegal aliens. As such, there is no way to keep track of them, financially or otherwise. If they get into a car accident, which they tend to do because they are unlicensed (and uninsured), they get taken to the police station and released. I have one friend that was killed by one eight months ago in Utah, and my sister in law was hit by another yesterday morning. Immigration does not try to capture them,as there are too many; if they get into trouble, they go back across the border for a month or so, and then return.

                      From what I'm told by my British friends, England has no problem with becoming more English. In fact, the whole concept of the old style English Gentleman is becoming extinct in that country. Which, is a shame, because I've found over the years that the English (and Australians) are some of the nicest, most respectful and respectable people in the world. Their culture, along with that of France's, is being altered quite dramatically, by the large influx of invited and noninvited immigrants, and, the influx if illegal aliens.

                      I turn out to be an "anti-illegal immigration" crusader. Is there a problem with being against illegal activity? Are you for illegal immigration?
                      Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

                      "You're just a jaded cynical mother****er...." Jeffpeg

                      (more comments in my User Profile)
                      russbo.com


                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Oh I forgot to point out that my schitzo-ex is also Central American / Hispanic, and we had to deal with an amazing amount of racist abuse. Despite the fact that he is one of the US's brightest immigrants. Yup so I am all over this issue both in the UK and in the US...

                        So you are telling me that if I go to an up til now undiscovered area (from the western view point), and create a legal system, and turn that legal system against the indigenous people, that's OK is it?

                        I don't see what you guys are doing with Central Americans, as anything different to the Australian's treatment of the aborigines, before they enlightened and could percieve the damage that this was doing to the Australian psyche. Perhaps that's now why you consider them to be
                        some of the nicest, most respectful and respectable people in the world.
                        ?
                        I think its apalling that your lot can use tags such as "illegal alien", it facilitates you using a two-tier society that has the same function as slavery, and ignore and dehumanise the plight of these people, something which goes completely against the founding principles of the USA.

                        All you want to do is protect want you've appropriated from the indigenous American people, and I think that all this discussion about legality is just a fudge / smoke and mirrors to deflect away from the real problem, which is that the US has become elitist and this is the most harmful aspect of the American culture both nationally and internationally as we observe it today.

                        Doc this all said, and more for the benefit of judgemental readers, I don't think this makes you a bad person, or implies that I don't like & respect you.... just that we very clearly differ on this matter!

                        B/rgds!

                        Chicken

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Chicken, you're trying to use the method of how the U.S. was founded as a excuse for how we treat illegal immigrants as if that has anything to do with it.

                          All across the U.S. jobs are taken away from legaly born Americans by illegal immigrants. You talk about a "two-tier" society that has the same effect as slavery but that couldn't be further from the reality of how Americans view this situation. When my best friends father is laid off because his boss hired an "illegal" for a cheaper wage you think I would view his father or the man who now has his job as on another "tier" as a "slave".

                          You should watch the words you use. Saying that is simply putting words in the mouths of a people you obviously think you understand better than you do.

                          The situation in the U.S. is simply a more complicated issue than you can fully grasp unless you live there and experience it first hand.

                          My ex-girlfriend is an illegal immigrant and was put there because of how rediculous our INS is, and how inefficient they handle the situation. Even though she was my girlfriend, I never liked the fact that her employer preffered to hire illegals to pay lower wages as well as not have to claim as much on his taxes and pocket more cash. Oh, and her boss was her step-brother, a former illegal himself. Talk about a self-perpetuating problem.

                          It's not the type of problem you can claim to understand unless you live there.

                          As far as you ex, I'm sorry for the racism he had to deal with but that's not always the situation either. These people are most certainly not viewed at as "slaves".
                          "Winners turn to losers, losers are forgotten..." - A Tribe Called Quest

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                          • #14
                            Baiwanxi,

                            I know pretty well what I'm saying and I'm more than informed and experienced in what's going on in the US... I have lived in US for 18 months in the last 5 years.

                            If you are in china... do you not get that everything is dirt cheap over here, and that by the time it hits our retail outletss in the West the prices have multiplied by a factor of 10?

                            Well guess what.... the reason why your friend's father is losing work is because someone else will do it for lesst, who just happens to be an illegal immigrant. That happens to be called competition. with in the context of market economics.

                            It is inevitable that world prices have to come down to compete with China, and as China's ability to produce higher order goods continues to develop, we are all going to have to deal with competition not just from Central and South America, but from China as well. You can all put your heads in the sand about how out of control prices have gotten in the western world fueling our materialism, but soon you are gonna get bitten on the bum by it.

                            We in the UK have been dealing with this for the last 30 years, as we've had to adapt to a customs union within the EU... basically the economy had to re-structure... your friend's father has to find another job that he's more suited to that an illegal immigrant isn't suited to. In the UK we embraced it and stimulated competition by denationalising and licensing everything. If we haddn't, well today we'd also be like France.

                            US dudes your turn has come. You should be grateful that Central and Southern America has eased you into this gently... when China takes over, they won't tiptoe in illegally... they do it silently from the otherside of the world, whilst you sit there trying to blame that fact that your order book has dried on illegal aliens.

                            Chicken

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Imaging the UK without curry
                              England without its national dish?! Never!

                              Reminds me of an episode of Auf Wiedersehen Pet where the lads go to a curry house in Düsseldorf and Oz can't understand how the indian waiter doesn't speak english since he's "one of us".

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