RMCAT, and other stuff too numerous to mention

[emre]

Originally posted by zachsan
as for energy bodies..

I see that there's no further point in arguing this with you because we obviously have different backgrounds and experiences with regards to qigong, meditation and the internal aspects of Chinese martial arts.

There's nothing mystical about qi for me so I have no reason to be sceptical. Qi is not a tingling sensation I think I feel in my hands after practice. I can feel all the acupuncture meridians and the core energy channels of my body. This is the result of 9 years of daily meditation and qigong practice under the guidance of qualified masters.

You have to understand however that these internal components are at the core of all chinese martial arts. If you dismiss them as unrealistic because you refused to practice them or never received the proper instruction, whatever the case may be, what you're practicing is no longer chinese martial arts and you shouldn't be making comparisons.

[zachsan]

anyway, now we're getting into the whole issue of whether or not qi exists, which i never really wanted to get into. let me just say that i'm not questioning your experiences. if you say that you've felt all of those things, then i'm sure you have, since i have no reason to think that you're a liar.

what i question is your interpretation of your experiences. you take it as proof of a certain philosophy or metaphysical concept. this is called confirmation bias. many other people have interpreted similar experiences many other ways. this is why (for these purposes, at least) science isn't really concerned with metaphysical explanations. qi is a metaphysical explanation (interpretation) of what you and people like you - myself included, for that matter - have experienced. being metaphysics, it's not testable by science. in other words, it's impossible to either prove or disprove qi energy. i simply believe that, if something's not testable or confirmable, there's no reason to believe in it, although i maintain that in reality i just don't know.

what this thread is about, however, is not qi energy. maybe i led us a little off track by posting that link, sorry. if i say, "qi is a living energy that permeates all of us", that's a metaphysical claim, and can't be confirmed or denied. if i say, "meditation can result in the complete control of the mind, even while in stressful situations"... well, that's different. that's an empirical claim, meaning it can be proven. the problem is, it hasn't been.

in my opinion, you always have reason to be skeptical. simply accepting someone else's explanations for the supernatural and metaphysical is the kind of thinking that gave us the dark ages. skeptical thinking is what got us out.

[daodejing]

Man, if you've been listening to me, meditation is not about "complete control of your body" under stress. Its about simultaneous control and acceptence. Its not about total presence of mind while adrenaline hits you, its about total presence of body and minimal presence of mind under stress.

Its more intention than control..... Yii Yi Yin Qi. Use your intention to lead your qi. Hmmm perhaps that's too much of a metaphysical statement.

Let's go with a more empirical statement, freezing up in a combat situation is usually accompanied by a racing mind which cannot decide on a single course of action and is thus crippled by indecision. To quote Hamlet, "thus conscience does make cowards of us all, and thus the native hue of resolution is sicklied o'er with the pale cast of thought." Now, in the instance of MA and meditative training in order to modify the stress response involves the repeated practice of excercises that promote body awareness while increasing mental awareness by reducing the preponderance of conscious thought.

This is not empirically proven to work. It has been historicallly proven. It is nearly impossible to empirically prove anything. Nothing is certain in science. "Scientific Law" is not law but a web of currently acceptable theories which are held toghether with accounting theories. New theories are proven or disproven by interpreting data through the context of accounting theories and then either discarded or assimilated into the theoretical web of the currently accepted scientific paradigm.

Even "laws" that are considered to be infallible by most laymen are known by the scientific community to be incorrect, yet they are still accepted as law because they work in most situations on this planet. Newton's laws of universal gravitation are perfect examples. They arent universal. When we use Newtons laws to make more advanced astronomical calculations we find that they frequently yeild incorrect calculations.

Empiricism is to knowledge what democracy is to politics. Sure its done some good things for us, and sure it has horrendous problems, but its not perfection. Beleive what you will.

[agreenknight]

Would it make you feel better, if someone were to say Qi is such and such chemical in your body? I'm not a buddist, sorry if I misspelled that, but it seems to me, the way they talk about mediation, is the same used to play an instrument such as the flute or trumpet.

[zachsan]

let me just say again that i'm not at all trying to somehow disprove the effectiveness of gongfu. it works. that has been "historically proven", as you say. the philosophies behind it, whether or not they are empirically testable or accurate, have given rise to systems that have saved lives. so what you're saying to me is, if those systems are effective, which they have shown themselves to be, then we should stick with them. same goes with certain aspects of TCM, for that matter.

that doesn't bother me at all. what bothers me is taking the effectiveness of the system as proof of the philosophy that gave rise to it. for instance, let's say i know nothing about human anatomy, and i come up with an extensive theory of how the soul is housed in the head, and if it's physically disturbed enough, it will escape from the head through the mouth, causing unconsciousness. to prove my theory, i walk up to my buddy and whack him in the head with a baseball bat. sure enough, unconsciousness results. eureka! proof! i knew it all along!

of course, scientifically, the only true conclusion that i can come to is that hitting someone on the head with a baseball bat can cause unconsciousness. this is why science and the scientific method is valuable. it weeds out what we really know from what we think we know, and, from there, we can make actual progress instead of unwittingly wasting our efforts.

so what i'm saying is, tai chi/gongfu/bagua/what-have-you works. but we don't know why it works - all we have is unscientific theories that were thought up thousands of years ago. and if we did truly know the "whys" of it, we could more accurately devise systems to take advantage of these "whys". simply accepting old explanations, no matter how close they may be to the truth, does nothing to help this process.

Even "laws" that are considered to be infallible by most laymen are known by the scientific community to be incorrect, yet they are still accepted as law because they work in most situations on this planet. Newton's laws of universal gravitation are perfect examples. They arent universal. When we use Newtons laws to make more advanced astronomical calculations we find that they frequently yeild incorrect calculations.

you're right, that's the perfect example. with science, newton brought us from having virtually no understanding of movement to understanding potential and kinetic energy, and such simple principles as momentum, in a mathematically useful way. this was a huge improvement. later on, with more advanced capabilities of testing, his theories were replaced by more better ones, such as the theory of relativity, and eventually, quantum mechanics. who knows, in years to come, even those theories may be supplanted. but without newton, and without the scientific method, we may never have made it past aristotle.

in the world of traditional martial arts, which is so devoted to old masters and old ways of thinking, that seems to be about where we are right now. aristotle was a genius and they were geniuses, but it's time to build on their foundation, rather than just calling it a house.

greenknight - it would only make me feel better if qi were somehow proven to be a chemical in the body, any kind of bodily process, or, for that matter, an ethereal living energy that permeates all things. what would make me feel better is the proof.

[agreenknight]

Well, I never said I knew what qi was or if I believed it existed. Take ki's for example. I saw this show where they tested some guy, without ki'ing and with it. Doing it he was more accurate. Kind of reminds me of the a war cry.

Some of what what martial arts teachings is physics, part health. How would you train someone to fight? If you teach them the easiest way first, then they will always defealt to that thing. For instance, you walk into a punch, it's going to hit you harder than if you were going the opposite way.

Another example, is if you have two forces, coming together one from the top, and the other to the bottom, then it's easier to break it.

I do think there is a chi though. I dont' know if it's the soul, or whatever, but I think the mind's senitivity to it's environment. I was wondering, what if this adrenline dump, is what they are refering to as qi?

One thing is too, that how much science training does a shaolin monk receive? I have heard very little, so how can they put things scientifically.

Also, some of the respect for the old masters, is because of the knowledge they have. They have practiced things for a long time. And when one dies, they may take knowledge with them to the grave. Also, when you get that far, you want to get respected.

[agreenknight]

How could it be proven that what qi is?

How could it be proven that a martial arts training could help deal with an adrenline dump?

How many of us, could do a study? Or have access to medical testing equipment.

I think what zachsan, is implying is that he wants hard evidence, not folk tales(no offense). Perhaps, there is something to the old stuff, but how could we prove it with science. If we could prove it, the we would know for sure is. By knowing that, perhaps it would help us to make it more effective.

Perhaps, this stuff is still guarded secrets, but in the past it was much more so.

Also, perhaps the training isn't so much as to negate the effects of the adrenline dump, as to be able to operate in it.

some people can exercise great judgment while under pressure, but that comes from being subjected to stressful situations a number of times and learning how to react to their own fear and adrenaline.

This sounds like a Karate class to me. For example, people barking at you.

[agreenknight]

One thing, is I think that energy sometimes means motivation. For example, having the energy to do things.

I think of chi as like the brain's a senitivity/reaction to things around you. Just my theory, no evidence to back it up.

I read that article, about energy.