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Face: The concept of pissing people off

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  • Face: The concept of pissing people off

    There have been books written about this Asian concept of face. And to rewrite what these tomes have proselytized about would be a waste of time, mainly because a lot of these books really don't hit the nail on the veritable head.

    This will keep it simple. And profound.

    In Thailand, and also in China et al, the concept of publicly treating people with respect is important. Confrontation is an absolute no no. I've seen people get into car accidents, get out of their cars, and talk to each other, smiling all the time. Nothing happens, things get solved, Once you raise your voice or present yourself in a confrontational way, shit happens.

    You can murder someone here in Phuket, go to the police, apologize and confess, and they'll let you out on bail until your court date.

    Publicly harass a police officer, and you're going to the slammer for days if not weeks.

    There was a recent episode with one genius who decided to not control his ego all that well, and interact with a customs official in a fashion similar to how he might interact with some low grade moron in the western world. I decided to not present this until the news finally presented all of the facts. We've been watching this for weeks, but only until yesterday did all of the commentary adequately present itself. We see this all the time; people getting arrested for stealing bar mats, but, you don't see the "face" issues until they're discussed later.

    Read this. It really tells the story of "face" well. But you have to ignore the story,and read into what the story is really telling you.

    PHUKET: After spending a his final night in Phuket under the observation of Phuket City Immigration officers, British national Simon Burrowes finally left Phuket at 5.50pm yesterday aboard a Silk Air flight destined for Singapore, where he was scheduled to catch a connecting flight to the UK.

    Asked why Mr Burrowes had to spend his final night on the island under the supervision of immigration officers despite completion of his court case and payment of a 500-baht fine for verbally abusing an Airport Immigration officer in January – when he originally planned to go home – an immigration officer told the Gazette that as Mr Burrowes had no money to pay for accommodation, they had to make sure there were no more problems.

    Before coming to Thailand, Mr Burrowes was living in rented accommodation in Wembley, North-West London. He planned to return to his job and home after three months in Phuket.

    Due to his extended stay in Thailand, he now faces bleak prospects back home, where he no longer has a job or housing.

    Mr Burrowes said that he had “learned a lot” from his experience in the Land of Smiles, but had no plans to ever return here.

    Mr Burrowes’s troubles in Phuket began in January, when he was held up at Airport Immigration by officers who suspected his passport may not have been genuine.

    The suspicion was initially aroused because Mr Burrowes appeared to be shirtless in the photo on the passport, which was in fact legitimately issued.

    As officers tried to verify the passport, Mr Burrowes realized his non-refundable flight would take to the skies without him.

    He then became angry and abusive toward the female immigration officer holding his passport.

    After pointing a finger at the officer’s face and shouting, “Give me back my [expletive deleted] passport you [expletive deleted] bitch,” Mr Burrowes snatched the passport back from the officer and walked away from the counter.

    That move turned an already bad situation into a complete nightmare.

    He was arrested and spent three weeks in Phuket Provincial Prison before being bailed and ordered to appear in court on verbal abuse charges. Mr Burrowes initially planned to fight the charges, but pleaded guilty on the day. He was fined 500 baht and released.

    Penniless, Mr Burrowes was finally bought an air ticket home by an anonymous Thai benefactor, but when he tried to catch the flight on Friday afternoon he was again foiled by inadequate paperwork – he didn’t understand that he needed to get a police report and then have his visa renewed at the Phuket Immigration Office in Phuket City, some 50 kilometers away, before he could be allowed to leave.

    Once again, he had to miss a non-refundable flight.

    It was apparently “third time lucky” for Mr Burrowes yesterday evening, however. He was last seen by the Gazette successfully passing through Immigration for his flight to Singapore – again paid for by a friend.
    Phuket Gazette
    The concept of "face" is made very clear in this little episode...
    Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

    "You're just a jaded cynical mother****er...." Jeffpeg

    (more comments in my User Profile)
    russbo.com



  • #2
    It never ends. People just don't seem to understand that they're in a different culture...

    PHUKET CITY: Australian tourist Annice Smoel pleaded guilty on Wednesday to stealing a bar mat from the Aussie Bar in Patong and paid a 1,000-baht fine (approx US$ 28.00) before leaving Phuket.

    Pol Maj Songserm Preecha of the Kathu Police, which operates in Patong, told the Gazette that the maximum sentence for the theft charge was one year imprisonment and a 2,000-baht fine, but Phuket Provincial Court halved both the prison sentence and fine based on her confession.

    The court then suspended the prison sentence because Mrs Smoel has no previous criminal record in Thailand.

    Mrs Smoel’s case has made major headlines in Australia, which is a prime source of tourists to Phuket at this time of year.

    She was arrested and detained for two nights in a cell at Kathu Police Station after police caught her with a stolen beer mat (aka 'bar mat') from the Aussie Bar on Soi Bangla in Patong.

    The bar mat, measuring 145cm by 45 cm, was made of thick rubber and can be bought from the Aussie Bar as a souvenir.

    The Australian mother or four initially denied the charges, saying friends had put the item in her handbag without her knowledge as a prank.

    Kathu Police forwarded the case to the Provincial Prosecutor’s Office and seized her passport, preventing her from leaving Thailand to go home to her children.

    The non-stop, worldwide publicity surrounding the case – and its possible impact on tourism – apparently made the court expedite the case.

    A Thai person facing the same charge would typically have to wait weeks or months for a court hearing.

    Maj Songserm also denied that Mrs Smoel spent four nights in prison, as has been widely reported. She spent two nights in prison and was released after 48 hours, the maximum allowable under the law, he said.

    Mrs Smoel was in an angry mood and quarreled with staff at the Aussie Bar. She was arrested by uniformed officers after staff at the bar reported the theft, not by “undercover police” inside the bar as previously reported in major media around the world, he said.
    This story had a good ending however:


    PHUKET CITY: Australian holidaymaker Annice Smoel is safely home after leaving Phuket on a Thai Airways flight to Bangkok at 9pm yesterday, then catching a connecting flight to Melbourne.

    During a visit to the Phuket Immigration Office yesterday, accompanied by her husband Darren, Ms Smoel was smiling broadly in the knowledge that her departure from the 'Land of Smiles' was imminent.

    Asked why she was grinning, the Australian mother of four told the media it was because she had regained her sense of hope – and was enjoying her first cup of tea of the day.

    To questions of whether she felt any regret about the episode that left her stuck in Thailand without a passport after spending two nights in a jail cell, she simply said, “nobody intended for it to be this bad”.

    Thai lawyer Cameron Sukban said Ms Smoel’s court-ordered 1,000 baht fine had been paid by Phuket Governor Wichai Phraisa-ngop.

    Her two-year prison sentence, reduced to a one-year suspended sentence based on her confession, meant she would have to go through “special channels” if she wished to return to Thailand someday.
    Both from the Phuket Gazette

    What's not mentioned is that after being approached by the policeman, she was offered to confess and pay a small twelve dollar fine. But allegedly, she became abusive, and ran off down the street, forcing the police to give chase and arrest her.

    A simple apology, some cash, and it's over.

    Aggressive behavior, embarrass the police, and it's off to jail.

    It's a simple concept
    Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

    "You're just a jaded cynical mother****er...." Jeffpeg

    (more comments in my User Profile)
    russbo.com


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    • #3
      so what happened to you when u threatened to shit in the hotel in dengfeng..lolo
      "did you ask me to consider dick with you??" blooming tianshi lotus

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      • #4
        Quite honestly, had I done it, I don't think anyone would have noticed it.
        Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

        "You're just a jaded cynical mother****er...." Jeffpeg

        (more comments in my User Profile)
        russbo.com


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        • #5
          If the point you're trying to make is that 'face' is exclusively an Eastern concept, I can't agree with you. Had any of the above happened in a Western country, yes, the outcome may have varied slightly but common courtesy is universal and a distinct lack thereof elicits similar responses. From the sounds of things both these incidents involved people who, as you said, had ego issues and reacted poorly in a high stress situation. But were they to behave this way in the West, no one would capitulate simply because the situation become heated/aggressive; this hostility inspires resistence from all parties that bear it, East or West.
          I remember hearing about a story in Texas where a man spat on a cop and consequently recieved some ridiculous prison sentence.
          More flies with honey than vinegar.

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          • #6
            True. But in Asia, it's more of a pervasive thing.

            For New York, we all grew up insulting each other publicly in high school, college, etc. It's not uncommon for people to make fun of each other, try to steal other's girlfriends, publicly humiliate people. Our response: throw it back at them. It's our culture, it's our nature.

            In Thailand, you get shot for these things.

            There is a difference.
            Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

            "You're just a jaded cynical mother****er...." Jeffpeg

            (more comments in my User Profile)
            russbo.com


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            • #7
              lol, thats funny. thats a good example haha

              i dunno if u can say that for all "western" society, but thats home.

              lol, just look at russbo, u can tell a chinese guy doesnt run shit here.
              "did you ask me to consider dick with you??" blooming tianshi lotus

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              • #8
                I am always surprised how westerners are confrontational> For me who tries to be hippie i am always afraid to reply and lose my true nature. I think one reason might be the high narcissism linked with constant search for self pleasure. Not really caring about suffering of the other, he becomes an object. If u add to it a tendency to sadism allied with death pulsion u might understand how some might want to destroy the other as it was a simple object

                For instance, i come across many westerners who get angry at me when they ask me where do i come from and i reply using the dialectic of no self. Or if i talk about indian views of how nature and food chain might be born from ignorance and not necesarly non violent, some will call me crazy or ask if i take drugs. It is a typical western pattern.

                But i always think ok u call me crazy so what will u do to help me? Apparently many dont take a shit and their narcissic ego feels good after humiliating me and called me crazy while they are clever. Helping the suffering? A shit budist idea...

                I alreadys also developed how the dialectic of contradiction often used is kind of hegelian or marxist> By opposing, contradicting u think u will advance. And who does not think like u is wrong> Jainism trough anekantavada, probabilism might have a different approach. Or dialectic of yin and yang. I think dialectic of contradiction is big problem in reaching political non violence

                On the other hand, chinese people can get easily angry. I guess there are many reasons for that, one being that culturally they cannot express all their feelings so the energy gets stored until it bursts for a reason that might be different from the original source of angers.


                I dont know

                Peace and love

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                • #9
                  As for saving face, it is for small things. Little things that can be brushed away. This stems from the fact that a person who is humiliated may not always make the right decision. For example, you accuse a friend of stealing your wallet, only later to find it under the couch, you then apologize. A true friend would allow you to save face, even though you falsely accused him he would say, something like, no problem, it happens.

                  Some may get offended at being accused, and get mad. This is called, "not letting the other person save face"

                  I think it all depends on the severity of the situation.

                  Then again, asians/japanese came up with hari kiri, which is what happens when you're not allowed to save face.
                  "Life is a run. In attack we run, in defense we run. When you can no longer run, time to die" - Shichiroji "Seven samurai"

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