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Cutting glass with bare fingers (Huang Aguilar)

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  • #16
    Dear LFJ,

    i got your point but it seems that you don't understand me fully...sorry maybe my english is not enough.

    The reason why i started the whole racist-theme, was that you asked for terms and information that are usual in some Buddhist monasteries but vary from culture to culture. The terms and questions for Ordination etc, are in itself contaminated by some existing Buddhist Monasteries, but different from Christianity, there is no standard for it. Zen itself refuses to be put in such standard concepts and categories. Therefor there are several Zen-Buddhist Monasteries in Japan, China and Korea, which have nothing to do with those questions.

    The monastery in Spain is a completely new one and fully independent from any usual categories and structures. It has nothing to do with Shaolin, China, or any other Buddhist Directions. It is down to its philosophy an completely new approach to the Zen-Teachings. You can say it is a reformistic monastery, which tries to go back to the roots. Huang Aguilar studied this roots in many countries e.g. China, Japan, Korea etc over 25 years. He focussed on the cultural influence the countries had on Buddhism and on the way they contaminated the once pure teachings of Zen. Through that he tried to reveal what was once completely independent from any organisations, schemes or titles (like Bhikkhu, etc)

    And through his studies, his excepional ability to learn and understand this knowledge and of course through the teachings of several masters and abbots (Such as Shi Su Xi, the formerly Abbot of Shaolin who passed away a few years ago) he created this new way, the monastery of ocean tranquility.

    Therefor it doesn't make sense to ask for his ordination and the name of his temple. His Zen-Buddhist Master was Shi De Ren, the Main-Buddhist-Teacher in the Shaolin Temple at that time. He was the one who taught, guided and ordinated him. But to say that he comes from the Shaolin-Lineage fails to grasp the point, because this is only one part of the things that he studied are now taught in this new monastery. As it is visible he had several masters, not only in Shaolin and studied in many different countries, ways and styles in order to unite a new comprehensive knowledge to be taught at his monastery.

    That is why i find it not neceserry to speak about such categories and structures that are predetermined by any culturally influenced way of Buddhism. Many things that he does or did, have never been done in Shaolin or any other Buddhist temples before. Others were practised but got lost over the years, expecially in the last 10 years. E.g. Nobody in Shaolin Practises the blistering iron exercise anymore, as he does it. Also the ceremonies in this temple differ from the average Buddhist-Ceremonies. As I said, it is a new approach and therefor question for titles and categories are redundant.

    Anyways: I understand questions of that kind, since this is the normal procedure. But since this thread here deals with another topic, i would like to continue this conversation either in another thread or through the means of private messages. Feel free to contact me any time: sarrouh@cwt-berlin.de
    Last edited by German Delegation MBOT; 01-13-2009, 12:59 PM.

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    • #17
      i know where spain is. sorry. for some reason i assumed it was mexico. didn't someone say something about mexico?

      anyhow, i'm sure he's a great guy who teaches well, is sincere, and also skilled. it's the terms and such that get me.
      ZhongwenMovies.com

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      • #18
        but seriously why do you think this guy is so great? if there is no ordination, how do you know what he tells you is the truth? because of pictures and bottle braking?
        ZhongwenMovies.com

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        • #19
          He is a very nice guy, and very well skilled, at least as I remember him from 1995.

          I'm just surprised at how he's "evolved"... Well, not that surprised; it's been in the process for a while.
          Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

          "You're just a jaded cynical mother****er...." Jeffpeg

          (more comments in my User Profile)
          russbo.com


          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by German Delegation MBOT View Post
            The reason why i started the whole racist-theme, was that you asked for terms and information that are usual in some Buddhist monasteries but vary from culture to culture.
            use whatever language you want. say bhikkhu, bhikshu, heshang, monk, etc.. thats all fine.

            different buddhist traditions use different vinayas- but those monastic codes certainly do not vary from culture to culture to the point where full ordination is no longer a requirement for abbocy.

            The terms and questions for Ordination etc, are in itself contaminated by some existing Buddhist Monasteries, but different from Christianity, there is no standard for it. Zen itself refuses to be put in such standard concepts and categories. Therefor there are several Zen-Buddhist Monasteries in Japan, China and Korea, which have nothing to do with those questions.
            that is most certainly not the case. those who have no verifiable lineage to speak of, talk down the importance of it.

            it is simple fact, one cannot become an abbot without full ordination.

            without full ordination, one's claim to abbocy is invalid and their right to open a monastery is null and void.

            The monastery in Spain is a completely new one and fully independent from any usual categories and structures. It has nothing to do with Shaolin, China, or any other Buddhist Directions. It is down to its philosophy an completely new approach to the Zen-Teachings.
            so its claim to being a legit monastery is invalid.

            Through that he tried to reveal what was once completely independent from any organisations, schemes or titles (like Bhikkhu, etc)
            basically, he has no official ordination in any monastic tradition, but tries to run a "monastery" as an "abbot".

            doesnt work like that.

            Therefor it doesn't make sense to ask for his ordination and the name of his temple.
            if he wants to call himself an "abbot" that implies ordination. for his monastery to be legit he must be fully ordained. so he should be able to name his preceptors, his three teachers and seven witnesses.

            should be stamped on his official certificate of ordination.

            otherwise, again, his claim to abbocy is invalid and his monastery is not legit. the most it could be is a buddhist center where he is the director.

            (assuming what he's teaching is actually buddhism, although claiming abbocy of a monastery without full ordination tells the tale.)

            That is why i find it not neceserry to speak about such categories and structures that are predetermined by any culturally influenced way of Buddhism.
            people who avoid authentic monastic traditions for ordination and try to open their own monasteries and claim abbocy upon "realization" of their own form of buddhism are commonly regarded as cult-leaders.

            Also the ceremonies in this temple differ from the average Buddhist-Ceremonies. As I said, it is a new approach and therefor question for titles and categories are redundant.
            because he has no formal monastic training?

            But since this thread here deals with another topic, i would like to continue this conversation either in another thread or through the means of private messages. Feel free to contact me any time: sarrouh@cwt-berlin.de
            this thread deals with master aguilar, who claims abbocy, and what he does in his "monastery" while lacking any valid bhikshu ordination required to do so.

            therefore, the discussion should remain public right here in my opinion- so as not to mislead people.

            Comment


            • #21
              it is simple fact, one cannot become an abbot without full ordination.
              It is clear to see, that you still think in regular schemes which are predetermined by cultural interpretations of Zen. I already pointed that out in my last answer. Since you did not really react to my post, but only strictly repeated what you have said before, i can only assume, that you either did not read my last answer or that you are not interested in a discussion at all. By the way: Quoting what i said, and writing "No, it isn't so" behind it, doesn't count as an real argument

              Master Aguilar has a full ordination i never said anything else. He lived in Shaolin during more than ten years. Also I said was, that it doesn't matter for this monastery, that this is something different from the monasteries you know and therefor doesn't fit in your schemes and preconditions about what or what is not a real monastery. This is why I am not even going to start about such things. If you want to speak about the source of his knowledge, i am fine with that, I'll even speak with you about his masters but don't attach me to any terms and structures, of which somebody wants them to be the rules and standards for everybody.

              You are speakin of Buddhism as if it was Christianity: If somebody wants to open a church, he has to be a bishop etc...But even in Christianity there are different ways: Catholocism, Protestants, Baptists, Orthodox. All of them have different rules about their structure. With this monastery it is the same and since it is a Buddhist monastery and therefor supposed to be free from institutional Chains it multiplies: It represents a new way of Buddhism, a new, pure and clean version of Chan/Zen and therefor doesn't deal with any Chinese, Japanes, Indian, Pali or Sanskrit terms: Since this monastery is a new step in System and Structure, the asian terms do not fit. You can see it as a new direction similar to many changes and schisms of every religion in history.

              Take Luther for example, even if this is a big scaled one, but i think everybody should be knowing what i am talking about: The things that he did were impossible for catholic terms and structure. In the eyes of the ruling force (catholic church), he was committing something "invalid" as you call it. In their eyes he could not open a new church with very different ideas and philosophy. that was simply impossible and Luther was called heretic etc. But today Protestantism is a widely accepted church, surely not being the biggest one, but even tolerated by the Catholic Church itself. In this Christian way, a priest may marry, women may become priests, etc etc...you will find many fundamental differences between the two. Now: The simple approach to apply the Christian terms on Protestantism, therefor would be in some cases completey redundant. You cannot talk about the catholic abstinency of the cleric and apply it to the Protestantism. It just doesnt make sense. What i am trying to point out is, that your requirements applied to this monastery, don't make sense in the same way. If you want so, you can see this monastery as a new way, just as protestantism, although i do not want to compare the content of the philosophy behind the two, and not draw any parallels in system, terms or structure. It is just an example to point out a reformistic movement which is different to the ruling force (existing buddhist communities).

              And again: Assuming that every Buddhist way on this planet must fit the requirements of the Asian Buddhist Community, is in itself racist. And you can try to talk you out of it but it stays like this: The terms that you are talking about have been created from Asian Leaders and are a characteristic of the Asian Buddhism. Surely Delegations of these Asian Monasteries, use the same terms in the Occident. But this monastery is not. It is a new step, having nothing to do with these Eastern terms. But I am repeating myself for the third time...

              Buddha or Damo never talked about Bikkhu-Ordination or Abbocy-Rules. Their heritage to the world was their Knowledge and not the institution that you are not able to put aside. That is why, if there isn't any new point or argument added, if you allow me i am going to kindly retreat myself from this conversation that starts to repeat itself.
              Last edited by German Delegation MBOT; 01-14-2009, 08:57 AM.

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              • #22
                I don't remember him living in Shaolin for more than ten years. I may be wrong, but, I never saw him on my journeys after 1995. He had spent a lot of time building his school in Spain after that; his web site was proof of that.

                But, whatever. If he's happy, and you're happy, I'm happy.
                Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

                "You're just a jaded cynical mother****er...." Jeffpeg

                (more comments in my User Profile)
                russbo.com


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                • #23
                  He was there since 1989 until 1999. But true, that especially in 1996 he stayed the whole year in Bilbao, Spain, with his former Shaolin Kung Fu Master Shi Xing Hong having him in his house on official duty for the Temple. Nevertheless he spent most of the years partly in Shaolin, meaning that he was there for 3 months, 3 months spain, 6 months Shaolin, 2 months Spain etc. As you pointed out correctly he always had a school to manage in Bilbao (since the early 80ies) and therefor had to return every couple of months...but in fact he was 10 years long constantly visiting shaolin and not like a tourist for two weeks but always at least 3 months, most of the time 6 months...And as you might know he was a Kung Fu Master and World champion even before his first visit to Shaolin at the End of the 80ies.

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                  • #24
                    Oi, this is veri sad that there is such suffering of animal ghosts in the world. How great r the gelugpa lama who understand nagarjuna s madhiamakashastra as a magic discipline of the jains? In this kali iuga who reaches the eternal pacification of everi animal ghost? Before white people arrived on the land of the red faced women, there was no monei. Please dont think lasa is in spain or bilbo in ipparalde for it will confuse ur powa.

                    Peace and love eternalli 4 everi animal ghost, specialli monkeis and cats, mi respect to shifu aguilar from the liu tang gan famili... Mai the ghost of inaki teaches the ghost of kali.

                    Ps: Is senor aguilar vegetarian? If so and maibe even if not mai i dare to ask him to be mi master to reach eternal non violence 4 animal ghost?

                    Om tare tutare ture soha, eta ez, terrorismo de estado to jail.

                    Not to mention insects>

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      i know nothing about this person of whom you speak, but, if he could help me 'to reach eternal non violence 4 animal ghost,' i'd call him my master too! lol... seriously though, the site is in spanish and that's not a language i'm terribly familiar with. is there an english site by chance?

                      It has nothing to do with Shaolin, China, or any other Buddhist Directions. It is down to its philosophy an completely new approach to the Zen-Teachings.
                      may i ask how you feel there is no connection with shaolin, china, buddhist directions, and so on?

                      from my understanding the site's url has 'shaolin' in it. there are pictures of shaolin monks all over the site as well. shaolin is chinese, of course. and 'chen,' which 'zen' was created from, represents a school of buddhism in china - where both were (arguably) invented and (definitely) developed.

                      so how do you see your monastary and study of zen to be separated from eastern terms when it uses eastern terms to represent and define itself?

                      and, if it's philosophically different, as you say, what is the point of being an abbot exactly?
                      -----------

                      Master Aguilar has a full ordination
                      what kind of ordination process did he go through? does he have preceptors, three teachers, seven witnesses, etc? if not, what are the requirements in your monastary? it seems like a pretty simple matter to resolve.
                      ZhongwenMovies.com

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                      • #26
                        lolo, how many people have come here with dreams of being a shaolin monk and opening a temple. and how many have actually done that.

                        so far this guy appears to be the only one, and not only that if he was going to shaolin and actually living there in the late 80's early 90's he must be a decent person, or not..i dont know or care that much

                        whats funny is how everyone is talking about lineage lolo. not to mention shaolin lineage which is the most questionable of all the lineages in china

                        and not to mention how many "temples" are tourist attractions. and as commercial as shaolin is you guys are arguing about validity of this guy over shaolin?

                        the abbot of shaolin drives a mercedes, and no one really even takes shaolin seriously. and the people who do take shaolin seriously look at them. look at all these documentaries. people who arent real martial artists going to shaolin for its secrets and all this.

                        how do they know shaolin is real if they arent even skilled in chinese martial arts? they dont know!! they just think they know

                        the monks are famous for 1 thing, fighting, but they dont FIGHT. no one would care about them if they didnt do kung fu. this site wouldnt even exist. not to mention how many of these monks are surrounded by controversy? how many yan ming threads have we all read about his students and their complaints?

                        what about doc lolo and how he got pwned by xing wei

                        all these monks sound like cult leaders when u talk to their students and learn about their methods

                        yan ming did the same thing this guy did, wasnt ordained in shit and opened a temple. no one cares about that though, not you either right lfj? could that be because hes de yangs kung fu brother? should we start talking about those 2 again lolo.
                        "did you ask me to consider dick with you??" blooming tianshi lotus

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                        • #27
                          Maestro, you're wrong.

                          The abbot is driving a Land Rover now. The Chinese government gave it to him, I think, because of his "productivity". Just FYI, the Mercedes was long before the Cadillac, which was before the Land Rover. There were extras in between.

                          And as for living in Shaolin starting in 1989, well, where have we heard that before... A common claim from people who make the now common claim of being a Shaolin monk...

                          But, I'm jaded and cynical. Ignore me.

                          And Liu, you need to go to HELL. You belong there.
                          Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

                          "You're just a jaded cynical mother****er...." Jeffpeg

                          (more comments in my User Profile)
                          russbo.com


                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Hello Doc,

                            http://www.shaolinmonastery.org/cast...funshao06.html

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by German Delegation MBOT View Post
                              Buddha or Damo never talked about Bikkhu-Ordination or Abbocy-Rules.
                              are you serious?

                              the buddha called his teachings the "doctrine and discipline", or "dharma-vinaya". its two part- vinaya being the monastic codes.

                              you have now given away your lack of knowledge in buddhism.

                              It is clear to see, that you still think in regular schemes which are predetermined by cultural interpretations of Zen.
                              actually the monastic codes and requirements for ordination were set out by shakyamuni buddha.

                              Master Aguilar has a full ordination i never said anything else.
                              if this is fact, then his preceptors, three teachers and seven witnesses should be easily provided.

                              Also I said was, that it doesn't matter for this monastery, that this is something different from the monasteries you know and therefor doesn't fit in your schemes and preconditions about what or what is not a real monastery.
                              the monasteries i know are buddhist monasteries which follow the guidelines set out in the vinaya by the buddha, shakyamuni. without meeting those requirements the monastery cannot be a valid buddhist monastery in any sense.

                              This is why I am not even going to start about such things. If you want to speak about the source of his knowledge, i am fine with that, I'll even speak with you about his masters but don't attach me to any terms and structures, of which somebody wants them to be the rules and standards for everybody.
                              because he has no monastic training, nor full ordination to speak of? he may have knowledge and a source for it, but without these he cannot be an abbot (a term both he and you use).

                              You are speakin of Buddhism as if it was Christianity: If somebody wants to open a church, he has to be a bishop etc..
                              you apparently have no experience of how buddhist monasticism works.

                              if master aguilar wants to open a monastery and be an abbot without full ordination, this is not a valid buddhist monastery nor tradition.

                              It represents a new way of Buddhism, a new, pure and clean version of Chan/Zen and therefor doesn't deal with any Chinese, Japanes, Indian, Pali or Sanskrit terms
                              "buddhist monastery" and "abbot" are both buddhist terms which have structures and regulations to them in buddhist context. one cannot discard the requirements and use them as they please, elsewise it is not buddhism-

                              however inline with the dharma your philosophy may be.. in case you missed it, the buddha's teachings are called dharma-vinaya. one cannot discard the vinaya and still claim abbocy and have a valid buddhist monastery.

                              without vinaya, at most, there can be dharma understanding and teaching at a center, where master aguilar is the director, as i suggested. but there can be no ordination, no abbocy and no monastery.

                              Take Luther for example, even if this is a big scaled one, but i think everybody should be knowing what i am talking about: The things that he did were impossible for catholic terms and structure. In the eyes of the ruling force (catholic church), he was committing something "invalid" as you call it. In their eyes he could not open a new church with very different ideas and philosophy.
                              the problem is, master aguilar is still claiming abbocy without full ordination and runs a monastery without monastic training as a fully ordained monk.

                              he's more than welcome to run his own show, but when you throw out the requirements for abbocy and running a monastery, you can no longer call it buddhist tradition. it is something else.

                              It is just an example to point out a reformistic movement which is different to the ruling force (existing buddhist communities).
                              the "ruling force" is the monastic code as stipulated by the buddha. if this is not followed then it is not "buddhism". you cannot claim "abbocy" or have a "buddhist monastery".

                              And again: Assuming that every Buddhist way on this planet must fit the requirements of the Asian Buddhist Community, is in itself racist.
                              no one said so.

                              And you can try to talk you out of it but it stays like this: The terms that you are talking about have been created from Asian Leaders and are a characteristic of the Asian Buddhism. Surely Delegations of these Asian Monasteries, use the same terms in the Occident. But this monastery is not. It is a new step, having nothing to do with these Eastern terms. But I am repeating myself for the third time...
                              this is incorrect. it is not a question of terms, it is a question of upholding the vinaya, or having ever taken full ordination required for the abbocy and monastery which master aguilar claims.

                              the terms abbocy and buddhist monastery may refer to different traditions practiced all over the world, but their requirements were set out by the buddha. following something other than what the buddha set out for monastic codes of his monks in a "monastery" is not buddhism.

                              hopefully with all the repetition this is clear now.

                              i suggest you do more study of the buddha's teachings, in particular look into the vinaya- pratimoksha precepts, etc..

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Hey German, read this (a few posts down, the post with the images attached):

                                http://www.russbo.org/vb/showthread....ghlight=dyanne

                                There is a wikipedia entry on Dyanne Thorne, which describes her getting a PhD in Comparative Religions, which is utter bullshit, but it's on the famed and widely accepted Wikipedia.

                                http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dyanne_Thorne

                                People call themselves things all the time. Personally, I have nothing against it, so long as the public is not harmed. I find it entertaining, and we've seen this behavior far too many times before. I've learned long ago, especially in the world of martial arts, that followers need their leaders, that people need "the myth". They search it out, they find it because there are others who recognize this demand and provide it.

                                However, I find Dyanne more interesting than Huang. But, that's my personal opinion.
                                Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

                                "You're just a jaded cynical mother****er...." Jeffpeg

                                (more comments in my User Profile)
                                russbo.com


                                Comment

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