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  • #31
    Unless you mean that flexing your lats will push your arms out and thus push whatever else there is, your latismus dorsi are not pushing muscles in the least. The only reasons you'll feel it in your lats the next day if say, you were doing punching drills, is because of the over-extension of the muscle.
    Becoming what I've dreamed about.

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    • #32
      im saying that the energy from a well executed punch, comes from the ground up, through the leg, through the hip, up the lats, through the shoulder, and out of the arm.

      if you dont engage the lats in a pushing motion, then the body isnt unified. resulting in a lack of power in your punch/push. engaing the lats initiates the whole body in a punch/push.

      most people dont know this. since it is a trained reaction. just look at how a wing chun practitioner throws punches, or a beng quan punch. the fist is in a thumb up position, this is because it engages the lats, as opposed to the more popular in the west version, where the thumb is in a horizontal position and the arm twisted, engaging the shoulder.
      "Life is a run. In attack we run, in defense we run. When you can no longer run, time to die" - Shichiroji "Seven samurai"

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      • #33
        i dont know what you mean by engage the lats.

        but..it doesnt sound right at all, to execute a punch or any strike in shaolin gung fu the power comes from the ground up as you say. but this ;

        "comes from the ground up, through the leg, through the hip, up the lats, through the shoulder, and out of the arm."

        this is incorrect. when talking about a punch horizontal wing chun punch or what have you, the stance may be higher or lower, but the power comes from stepping into the strike, directing the power from the ground up, directed by the waist AND dan tian, through the SPINE not the lats, and finally the power is projected via the fist.

        no muscles should be contracted, you should be 'relaxed' the whole way through, and at the end of your punches strike the only thing that should be tense and tight is your fist.

        again i dont know what u mean by engage the lats, because you should have to engage any muscles in your back whatsoever, the waist AND dan tian controls the rotation of the shoulder and nothing else, this is why sinking the elbow and relaxing the shoulder is vital

        in chinese martial arts we say "without a relaxed shoulder nothing is possible"
        "did you ask me to consider dick with you??" blooming tianshi lotus

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Maestro
          i dont know what you mean by engage the lats.

          but..it doesnt sound right at all, to execute a punch or any strike in shaolin gung fu the power comes from the ground up as you say. but this ;

          "comes from the ground up, through the leg, through the hip, up the lats, through the shoulder, and out of the arm."

          this is incorrect. when talking about a punch horizontal wing chun punch or what have you, the stance may be higher or lower, but the power comes from stepping into the strike, directing the power from the ground up, directed by the waist AND dan tian, through the SPINE not the lats, and finally the power is projected via the fist.

          no muscles should be contracted, you should be 'relaxed' the whole way through, and at the end of your punches strike the only thing that should be tense and tight is your fist.

          again i dont know what u mean by engage the lats, because you should have to engage any muscles in your back whatsoever, the waist AND dan tian controls the rotation of the shoulder and nothing else, this is why sinking the elbow and relaxing the shoulder is vital

          in chinese martial arts we say "without a relaxed shoulder nothing is possible"



          i dont know why you think this is true, just look at some of mas oyama sparring clips, he didnt step in when he delivered those rib breaking hooks. how do you explain that?

          and how can you issue energy from the spine into the arms? there is no connection besides the lats, and the traps, which i forgot to mention.

          you are right abot the whole body should be relaxed, but do you realize what relaxing does? it connects the body.

          if you use the shoulder, you weaken the punch. unless your shoulder is relaxed, you wont be able to issue force from the dantien. and force from the dantien travels through the lats and traps.

          im not wrong, you are wrong.

          just look at the punching style of mas oyama, by far the hardest hitter of all time.

          Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.


          i didnt see a step in...

          p.s. i pretty much quote oyama in my statement, how can you argue with oyama?
          Last edited by master splinter; 07-13-2006, 10:12 PM.
          "Life is a run. In attack we run, in defense we run. When you can no longer run, time to die" - Shichiroji "Seven samurai"

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          • #35
            The hammer fist is used by WC because they claim it is faster than a straight punch. They also argue that it allows for greater extension and range.

            The latissimus dorsi is a stronger shoulder adductor when the shoulder is somewhat externally rotated. It is a stronger shoulder extensor when the shoulder is in anatomical position. Incidentally, the latissimus dorsi does not extend the shoulder beyond anatomical position (shoulder hyperextension). In strict transverse extension, the latissimus dorsi is weak. The posterior deltoid is strongly involved in both shoulder hyperextension and transverse extension.


            The lats undergo trauma when punches are extended. And as the quote said, retract the scapula when it is extended during a punch. You never push with your lats.

            Aside from all this,

            and how can you issue energy from the spine into the arms? there is no connection besides the lats, and the traps, which i forgot to mention.
            Ummmm...blood vessels, rhomboids, infraspinatius, supraspinatinus, teres major...just to name a few. Not only this, but you're trying to relate something unquantifiable (chi) to the existance of superficial muscles. But I will tell you this: the energy created from the rotation of your hips and dantien or whatever else you want to name from down there, travels via your spine. How the **** would momentum travel through muscle fiber? This isn't Popeye where they mucles bulge like waves. Additionally, are you aware the muscles are incapable of pushing, and that they are coordinated to pull to create a desired effect?

            im not wrong, you are wrong.
            I know you are but what am I?

            i pretty much quote oyama in my statement, how can you argue with oyama?
            He is/was a person capable of making mistakes. I forgive him.
            Becoming what I've dreamed about.

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            • #36
              okay,

              my apologies, im not to good with muscular anatomy, but ive looked up a few things and i admit, i was wrong about the lats.


              The Latissimus Dorsi Muscle (pp. 531, 533)

              * The name of this muscle is derived from the Latin meaning "widest of the back".
              * This is large, wide, fan-shaped muscle passes between the trunk and the humerus and acts on the shoulder joint and indirectly on the pectoral girdle.


              * Medial attachments are: spinous processes of the inferior six thoracic vertebrae, thoracolumbar fascia, iliac crest, and inferior 3 or 4 ribs.
              * Lateral attachments are: floor of intertubercular groove of humerus.
              * Innervation: thoracodorsal n. (C6, C7, and C8).


              * The latissimus dorsi extends, adducts, and medially rotates the humerus at the shoulder joint.
              * When climbing, these muscles raise the trunk. In conjunction with the pectoralis major muscle, thelatissimus dorsi muscle raises the trunk to the arm, which occurs when performing chip-ups.





              The Serratus Anterior Muscle (pp. 507, 510)

              * This is a large, foliate muscle that overlies the lateral portion of the thorax and the intercostal muscles.
              * It was given its name (L. serratus, a saw) because the saw-toothed appearance of the fleshy digitations at its proximal attachments.


              * Proximal attachments are: external surface of lateral parts of ribs 1 to 8.
              * Distal attachments are: anterior surface of medial border of scapula.
              * Innervation: long thoracic nerve (C5, C6, and C7).


              * The serratus anterior protracts the scapula and holds or fixes it against the thoracic wall.
              * Because it is active during punching, it has been called "the boxer's muscle".
              * By fixing the scapula to the thorax, it acts as an anchor for this bone and permits other muscles to use it as a fixed bone to produce movements of the humerus. Inferior fibres of the serratus anterior help to raise the glenoid fossa of the scapula.



              there you go.

              i didnt know the medical name for each muscle group, but now i do.

              it seems that i combined these two muscle groups into one and called them the lats. okay i was wrong there.



              this is the muscle i was talking about that engages when you relax the shoulder.
              "Life is a run. In attack we run, in defense we run. When you can no longer run, time to die" - Shichiroji "Seven samurai"

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by master splinter
                okay,

                my apologies, im not to good with muscular anatomy, but ive looked up a few things and i admit, i was wrong about the lats.


                The Latissimus Dorsi Muscle (pp. 531, 533)

                * The name of this muscle is derived from the Latin meaning "widest of the back".
                * This is large, wide, fan-shaped muscle passes between the trunk and the humerus and acts on the shoulder joint and indirectly on the pectoral girdle.


                * Medial attachments are: spinous processes of the inferior six thoracic vertebrae, thoracolumbar fascia, iliac crest, and inferior 3 or 4 ribs.
                * Lateral attachments are: floor of intertubercular groove of humerus.
                * Innervation: thoracodorsal n. (C6, C7, and C8).


                * The latissimus dorsi extends, adducts, and medially rotates the humerus at the shoulder joint.
                * When climbing, these muscles raise the trunk. In conjunction with the pectoralis major muscle, thelatissimus dorsi muscle raises the trunk to the arm, which occurs when performing chip-ups.





                The Serratus Anterior Muscle (pp. 507, 510)

                * This is a large, foliate muscle that overlies the lateral portion of the thorax and the intercostal muscles.
                * It was given its name (L. serratus, a saw) because the saw-toothed appearance of the fleshy digitations at its proximal attachments.


                * Proximal attachments are: external surface of lateral parts of ribs 1 to 8.
                * Distal attachments are: anterior surface of medial border of scapula.
                * Innervation: long thoracic nerve (C5, C6, and C7).


                * The serratus anterior protracts the scapula and holds or fixes it against the thoracic wall.
                * Because it is active during punching, it has been called "the boxer's muscle".
                * By fixing the scapula to the thorax, it acts as an anchor for this bone and permits other muscles to use it as a fixed bone to produce movements of the humerus. Inferior fibres of the serratus anterior help to raise the glenoid fossa of the scapula.



                there you go.

                i didnt know the medical name for each muscle group, but now i do.

                it seems that i combined these two muscle groups into one and called them the lats. okay i was wrong there.



                this is the muscle i was talking about that engages when you relax the shoulder.
                so i guess oyama and i werent wrong after all??? well how could we be, we ACTUALLY fight, and speak from experience, not textbooks.
                "Life is a run. In attack we run, in defense we run. When you can no longer run, time to die" - Shichiroji "Seven samurai"

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                • #38
                  Wrong is wrong, but atleast you know now. You're already ahead of Oyama in that case...
                  Becoming what I've dreamed about.

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                  • #39
                    master splinter, i wasnt trying to insult you or point fingers. the fact of the matter is, your explanation of the mechanics of a punch were incorrect. this isnt my oppinion, what you explained just goes against power generation in chienese martial arts

                    and what i was trying to say has nothing to do with chi or whatever. im not even going to get into chi jing and shen again...

                    "i dont know why you think this is true, just look at some of mas oyama sparring clips, he didnt step in when he delivered those rib breaking hooks. how do you explain that?"

                    well..for one you dont have to step into hooks, any boxer will tell you that. and you want to talk about rib breaking whatever mas oyama practiced iron fist pan qing fu style...just before pan was born, and he killed horses and bulls with his bare hands...your point is irrelevant in both cases seeing as you dont even realise how hooks are used in combat?

                    "and how can you issue energy from the spine into the arms? there is no connection besides the lats, and the traps, which i forgot to mention"

                    if you dont know this you know very little. im not insulting you its just the truth. transferring power via the ground comes from the structural integrity of the skeletal alignment in dynamic postures or patterns in shaolin. it could be as simple as a straight punch or an uppercut but if you are a half an inch of the mark your power will be dissipated.

                    this is why in chinese martial arts we rely on the strength of the tendons and ligaments, for what the masters call "reserve energy" this is the method possible of exerting "jing" which again..im not going there again

                    "you are right abot the whole body should be relaxed, but do you realize what relaxing does? it connects the body."

                    i realise very well what "relaxing" is in the context of chinese martial arts, and its alot different then haveing a thai hooker give you a massage.

                    for one thing if bow energy isnt present your "soft ging" or relaxed state isnt going to be nearly as effective, and correct bow energy relies on many factors

                    "if you use the shoulder, you weaken the punch. unless your shoulder is relaxed, you wont be able to issue force from the dantien. and force from the dantien travels through the lats and traps."

                    like i said, the shoulder must be relaxed completely like you ARE getting a massage from a thai hooker, but thats one factor that should be obvious to ANY martial artist.

                    and the force DIRECTED not issued from the dan tian does not travel through the lats and traps, the whipping motion created by the dan tian and initiated by the rotation of the waist allows the body to send spiraling energy into your opponent, now how you apply the power is irrelevant, because it can be manipulated depending upon your level of manipulating energy, your personal understanding of penetration etc, but the bottom line is the lats and traps arent a factor, the spine and the dan tian work in unison which inturn projects your power in any direction you wish, not just forward which would be the opposite case if you were to engage the lats and traps in all your strikes if ANY

                    and btw im not trying to argue, i dont need to im really trying to clarify concepts you obviously are confused about, but like i say take it or leave it like always..

                    and oyama would agree with me
                    "did you ask me to consider dick with you??" blooming tianshi lotus

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                    • #40
                      okay maestro...

                      i see this is getting nowhere.

                      btw, you seem to be somewhat well versed in your opinion(not that i agree), out of curiosity, what styles of cma do you practice?
                      "Life is a run. In attack we run, in defense we run. When you can no longer run, time to die" - Shichiroji "Seven samurai"

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                      • #41
                        i practice hung kuen
                        "did you ask me to consider dick with you??" blooming tianshi lotus

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