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  • jing, chi, shen..

    1. what is the correlation between chi, jing and shen? why is it so important?

    2. how does shen effect the chi and jing?

    3. what effect does the mind have on chi and jing and how does shen fit together with all 3?

    4. how does shen play in a combat scenario and in daily qigong practice?
    Last edited by onesp1ng; 04-09-2006, 02:38 AM.
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  • #2
    first off "hard and soft"; hard and soft qi gong are the two most commonly talked about methods in any chinese martial art, ie internal ma and external ma. the real difference lies in the level of understanding and experience of the practitioner and or the style. for instance, both shaolin gung fu and the neijia place heavy emphasis on structure, if this is not so, the 6 harmonies would be useless, because without proper structure or shape the power from the earth which is transferred by the six harmonies could not be directed or used effectively. in this way, all techniques of shaolin gung fu are dependent on the shape, no matter it be a straight punch, a hook, or a tiger claw.

    now, this being said, the shape of techniques in shaolin gung fu are based on the structural integrity of the skeletal system which correlates with the tendons and ligaments. this is no coincidence that the force of shaolin gung fu and other arts relies on the strength of the sinews, we call this "reserve energy" in shaolin gung fu, and use of this enables a practitioner to fight longer. because there is no muscle contraction oxygen can flow easier throughout the body, which obviously also means the blood. and in shaolin we say, "were the blood goes, the chi goes"

    understanding this, structure is very important. it allows for the chi and jing to be manipulated however one wishes. once understanding of how to master the self is accomplished u can begin to experiment with different methods of transferring jing. in the end eveything you do will be powerful

    with all that being said, hard and soft in the end are not higher or lower but infact are intimately tied together. it is also often said in shaolin "it is easier to progress from hard to soft" this reason is because the hard makes you wish to be soft. if you were to stay on the same level as a beginner, you would be hard often, not unpowerful but at the same time not reaching your true potential. therefore to become soft it is easier to experience and understand the hard first, so that you can make the hard softer, which inrelation to combat means more fluid, quicker, more sensitive etc

    when talking of hard and soft qi gong practice, you must realise that the aims are different, but neither can be called more advanced. u should ask yourself, how do hard and soft qi gong really differ? if u know the answer thats fine, but my oppinion is the only difference lies in the practitioner. for instance if i do the ba duan jin i can make it hard or soft, and there are infact 2 different schools and "major" methods of doing this routine. if one wishes to train the external more then the internal they will play their routine harder with more emphasis on dynamic or isometric tension, more pressure on the dan tian, lower stances and sharper movements. if they wish to play their routine softer, it is easier to direct the qi to the furthest point of the extremitys and to hold a position for an extended period of time or to spend much emphasis on the dynamic structure. in this way, for instance, doing dynamic soft qi gong, your body learns to move as a unit, the upper and lower halfs of the body are connected and it increases flow of blood and qi all throughout the body. at and advanced level if u wish u can achieve the same results in standing post which is what is favored by shaolin practitioners.

    as for the role of shen in qi gong, and the transmission of jing which is based off the qi energy. shen is relative to your subconcious or your heart. what leads the mind is the shen, but it is for this reason that shen is used. in combat, hesitation and timing and rhythm are key to success. if the mind is constantly thinking of the past or future your chances of victory will be lower. therefore, if u train yourself in your gung fu practice and in qi gong practice to utilize the state of wuji(empty mind, no mind) naturally, when u wish to transferr the jing it will manifest instantly. this is so because only when the mind is empty, the breathing is deep and the intent is placed or directed will the qi energy manifest. what the qi energys role plays in combat inrelation to all of this is more or less backup the jing it strengthens the jing which is what is used in combat. this is infact why many masters say qi gong is "energy cultivation or air cultivation etc" regular qi gong strengthens the muscles and stretches out the tendons and ligaments. it increases the blood flow and strengthens the mind via the state of wuji which is crucial to winning combat. and also it strengthens shen, by allowing shen to direct the intent or the mind which in turn leads the chi to the rest of the body and its organs you are working on all aspects of the body which are neccesary to health, and combat proficiency.

    this is why i say, such things are basic to shaolin gung fu. without qi, the jing is depleted, this is why maters say when you orgasm the chi is depleted and u are therefore less powerful because u have less jing, infact when i asked my teacher this question he said "less jing". therefore..without the understanding of qi, jing, shen and how to control and harness such skills the combat proficiency of a gung fu practitioner is lowered.

    the problem is, westerners read such things and misunderstand things that are on a physical level very easy, as long as practice is sought. this is why i try and tell people if the basic is not their there is no reason to pursue the advanced. and in chinese martial arts again there is a saying "the top is the bottom, the bottom is the top"

    again i could go on how even more misunderstand this say as reffering to the six harmonies or basic attacks akin to what a boxer or kickboxer would use, but i will not because i just laid it all out on the table for you

    and i wrote this very quickly and i will not be editing it, so enjoy it

    Maestro, what do you mean when you say, "u can begin to experiment with different methods of transferring jing?" What are some methods?
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    • #3
      As I've been working a lot recently, i'll have to do this in sections. But my hope is to show the relationship that these terms have with the Chinese language, because, like maestro points out, " westerners read such things and misunderstand things that are on a physical level very easy." To Chinese these terms are part of the vernacular, medicine, etc... and are basic concepts, not anything spectacular or phenomenal, just a means of expressing reality. Of course any criticisms, comments or questions are welcomed. My understanding is like most things: a work in progress.

      -----------------

      Although monosyllabic, the meaning for any given "word" in Chinese can be represented by 1 to, I don't know, 100 or more characters? Well, perhaps 100 is a stretch, even if there are are some pretty long idioms..LOL..but it so happens that the meaning for 精jïng is conveyed by a single character, and like many Chinese characters, was made through a juxtaposition of two or more sub characters.

      From a traditional Chinese vantage point, 精氣神jïngqìshén are terms which represent 3 different states of 氣qì, states that are separate but also ultimately united. They converge to form all living things and are important for being three of the vital substances for life. An understanding of the language helps to make these relationships clearer. So let's observe a bit of the linguistics behind the terms to see how they're used and fit together.

      精jïng = essence of life: a single character with two parts. 米mî, the first part, is the character to the left and means rice. 青qïng is the part to the right and can actually refer to a bunch of different things. Yet, regardless of a particular use, when the character 青qïng is used, it almost always has a relationship with something green, like vegetables. In fact, 青菜qïngcài means green vegetables, or﹐ more specifically, Chinese cabbage. And if it's not green, well, the meaning invariably relates somehow to youthfulness, like in the in the term for teenagers, 青少年qïngshàonián.

      RELATED TERMS

      jïngzi
      1. 精子 = sperm
      jïngcâi
      2. 精彩 = brilliant, splendid, wonderful
      jïnglì
      3. 精力 = vigor (here 精jïng is combined with 力lì, the character for strength, power or force)
      jïngshén
      4. 精神 = spirit (here 精 jïng is combined with 神shén, the character for god, the mind or the supernatural)
      jïngguäng
      5. 精光 = nothing left (here 精jïng is combined with 光guäng, the character
      for missing, gone or empty)

      jïng
      精: the physical body, closely related to semen, fluids, our ancestors and DNA. 精jïng might be likened to a nutrient needy seedling toiling up through the mud. It derives from hereditary and primarily relates to one's constitutional strength. Linguistically, the connections between one's 精jïng (essence)﹐力lì (strength or power) and 神shén (spirit or mind) are pretty obvious. I think number 5, 精光jïngguäng, illustrates how integral 精jïng is in playing a specific role in health. We can see this since 光guäng essentially means gone, empty or missing. If there is large 精jïng deficiency, well, "nothing's left." Our health, capacity to move and use our 氣qì , mind and spiritual connectedness all depend one's 精jïng .

      Practitioners with good 精jïng will quickly acquire reserves of 功力gönglì or martial strength, which is stored in the legs and is vital to the accumulation of powerful 氣qì. Someone who is 精jïng deficient will have a harder time accumulating 功力gönglì. Lack of 功力gönglì affects one's 鬆沉söngchén or ability to relax and sink. In such situations, practitioners inadvertently tire more quickly, feel tense, and waste valuable energy since a reliance on brut strength develops.
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      • #4
        What is the progression of these energies?

        Qi>>Jing>>Shen?

        How does this occour?
        Becoming what I've dreamed about.

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        • #5
          usually goes jing- qi - shen. jing is not so hard to manipulate but it takes a couple years to master the body to get what u fully want out of it, cultivateing qi comes after understanding of jing and the use of shen is the most advanced and comes last
          "did you ask me to consider dick with you??" blooming tianshi lotus

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          • #6
            The traditional character for 氣qì is also written in two parts: 米mî and 气qì. 米mî means rice (earth) and 气qì means air (heaven). Hence 氣qì is acquired from the food we eat and air we breath. Surely the greater relationship one has with the earth..via herbs, good diet, qigong, etc. the better their overall 氣qì functions. The more abundant your 精jïng, the better your 氣qì functions...which naturally leads to a healthier, calmer 神shén, mind or spirit.

            Related Terms

            1. 氣力 qi4li4 = energy, strength
            2. 氣泡 qi4 pao4 = air bubble
            3. 氣球 qi4 qiu2 = balloon
            4. 氣溫 qi4wen2 = air temperature
            4. 氣流 qi4liu2 = air current
            5. 氣象 qi4qiang4 = meteorological phenomenon
            6. 氣質 qi4zhi2 = person's qualities, disposition, temperament

            Check out my brothers blog for more info on the various 氣qì manifestations: 元氣yuan2qi4、营氣ying2qi4、卫氣wei4qi4、宗氣zong1qi4、真氣zhen1 qi4. He does a pretty good job of making the different associations intelligible.


            --------------

            So, Maestro, what do you mean when you say, "u can begin to experiment with different methods of transferring jing?" What are some methods?
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            • #7
              i didnt like that article, it sounds like bullshit. why i say that is because i doubt the author has a clue about what hes talking, for instance the relation of the different qi energys. from my understanding of traditional chinese medicine and traditional chinese martial arts, there is only qi in 1 form in the end. he sounds as if hes using different aspects of qi to describe the same thing, which is stupid if that is the point.

              "So, Maestro, what do you mean when you say, "u can begin to experiment with different methods of transferring jing?" What are some methods?"

              well, thats a good question. it depends on style but in the end i would have to say some methods would in the end be like comparing doing a cartwheel to doing a no hand cartwheel.

              what i mean when i say this is, your still doing a cartwheel ie your still using the original jing but your doing it differently for whatever reason.

              for example i could do fun kiu laterally, but if say i was attacked from a overhand technique or from an uppercut, i could use fun kiu vertically and seperate either of the attacks which could also leave the opponent open for me to follow up quicker or allow me to control him easier. thinking about it, it could also give me an opportunity to move in quicker aswell if i used it in response to such an attack because laterally would more or less brush the attack away but vertically could open them up more since it would be unnatural for the arms to be stop in such a way and could allow me to take control of his center easier.

              such things i think about often but practice more, ive been successful in the past by trying to experiement with using different methods and remaining powerful in exploiting the jings found in hung style by not only such things i discussed above but by using different hand or finger placement, but other times i found some hand and finger placements are neccesary, which was part of the learning process.

              anyway, stuff like that is what i mean.
              "did you ask me to consider dick with you??" blooming tianshi lotus

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              • #8
                The author is a practicing TCM Doctor with a Masters degree (four years) from the American College of Traditional Chinese Medicine.
                -----------

                Generally speaking......

                Qi has two meanings. One refers to the essential substance flowing in the body and its functions, it being the basic substance maintaining life activities of human body. The other refers to the functional states of the viscera and tissues under the controlling of the vegetative nervous system. According to origin, there are mainly five kinds of qi in human body--yuan ( primordial energy ), zongqi ( initial energy ), yingqi ( nutritional energy ), weiqi ( defending energy ) and visceral qi ( vital energy of zang-organs and fu-organs).
                Taken from: http://healther.stormloader.com/sioutline3.htm
                -----------

                Some other resources on the subject:







                -----------

                But to continue the discussion on jingqishen, I came across this and thought it was a pretty accurate comparison:

                Daoist master Sung Jin Park, described the Three Treasures by comparing them to a burning candle. Jing is like the wax and wick, which are the substantial parts of the candle. They are made of material, which is essentially condensed energy. The flame of the lit candle is likened to qi, for this is the energetic activity of the candle, which eventually results in the burning out of the candle. The radiance given off by the flaming candle is shen. The larger the candle and the better the quality of the wax and wick, the steadier will be its flame and the longer the candle will last. The steadier the flame, the steadier the light given off; and the greater the flame, the greater the light.
                Taken from: http://www.fx120.net/english/tcm/TCM...1111276335.htm

                -----------

                Not only does it seem that you are confused with the term 氣qi4, but you are also overlapping or mixing together the concepts of 精jing1 and 經jing4 (sometimes pronounced jin4). They are not the same.
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                • #9
                  Sorry, I should have said, '精jing1 and 勁jing4,' with a 力li4 (strength) to not right. This 經jing4 not correct.
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                  • #10
                    lolo, come again? what am i confused about?

                    and when exactly do u plan on contributeing your own ideas and oppinions? from what ive read all youve done is talk about qi jing and shen from the standpoint of someone like your brother who inreality probably doesnt have a clue out of theory or pricking people with needles.

                    all youve said so far is you get qi from the air and from food and that it turns into jing and makes you more powerful lolo, what the hell does that have to do with anything?

                    what u been writeing sounds like quotes from chi jing and shen for dummies lolo
                    "did you ask me to consider dick with you??" blooming tianshi lotus

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