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  • Tell us about shi de hong..
    To songshanmonk and Arhat thank for some good debating it's really been a pleasure. I'm now relaxing with one of my new female students and some special water just like your masters would and soon she will do some gi ben gong for me and you know the rest my other students will accept that they don't understand the politics of shaolin so they'll shut up just like you would advocate. I'm one of shi yan mings biggest fans and I don't even know him though I feel like I've known him for years. But I don't know Madonna either and I like her too.
    To Iron cross welcome back to the brotherhood!!! Why beg some one to take you back- with your limited knowledge or whatever, realy doesn't matter, you can start your own school- you are just as much a shaolin monk as the rest of us!!! Your name should be Shi Yan-cross or something similar. I advice all who sides with the shaolin fundamentalists to get their own shaolin names as you are monks in your view. This entitles you to mystic qi gong and special water parties with gullible students. Iron cross i now invite you to join my new click- the shaolin secret qi gong brotherhood, you allready know some of it's members and followers- will you join? Anyone else who wants to can join too just say it and change your name.
    Secret qi gong master Shi Yan-LU

    Comment


    • Hey why not I'll be a monk and start my own shaolin temple too... seems like the in thing to do these days... too bad im not chinese otherwise i really could get away with it...
      The essential point in science it not a complicated mathematical formalism or a ritualized experimentation. Rather the heart of science is a kind of shrewd honesty the springs from really wanting to know what the hell is going on!

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      • Originally posted by Iron Cross
        Hey why not I'll be a monk and start my own shaolin temple too... seems like the in thing to do these days... too bad im not chinese otherwise i really could get away with it...
        What are you talking about? I know tons of non-chinese shaolin monks...

        Here is two:


        www.newyorkshaolin.com (his master is white http://www.shaolinnm.com/photos.htm)

        The NewYork Shaolin is especially great. Go to the lineage page. His grand master was chewbacca....

        Good luck to you in your persuits to be a SHAOLIN WARRIOR MONK!!!!

        Comment


        • My god your right... I can really do it... an what are the odds my grandmaster was Han Solo....
          The essential point in science it not a complicated mathematical formalism or a ritualized experimentation. Rather the heart of science is a kind of shrewd honesty the springs from really wanting to know what the hell is going on!

          Comment


          • baiwanxi-

            in chinese traditions there are a few levels of precepts:

            1) sujiadizi- a lay person who receives the refuges and five precepts and formally becomes "buddhist".

            2) shami/shamini- a novice monk/nun who receives the refuges and ten precepts and lives in the temple. they are candidates for full ordination at the age of 20.

            3) heshang or nigu- a fully ordained monk or nun who receives the three refuges, and ontop of the ten precepts the full transmission of the pratimoksha precepts.

            further, the bodhisattva precepts are open to all from laity to fully ordained but in chinese traditions are a requirement for fully ordaining monks or nuns.

            arhat has mentioned some five levels within shaolin tradition. we have three here. the other two added would be wuseng and wenseng, martial and scholar monks. (if these are the five levels referred to)

            the question remaining though is the precepts taken by a wuseng or wenseng. where it puts them between sujiadizi and heshang, above or below shami. but i have heard they do not take even the 10 precepts like the novice shami. so the question still remains. and what gives them the authorization to transmit the refuges and precepts to the sujiadizi, wuseng/wenseng, or others if they are not fully ordained heshang? or what is it that differentiates them between and sets them above the sujiadizi if they themselves dont take the ten precepts?

            .....
            Last edited by LFJ; 03-15-2007, 12:06 AM.

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            • I don't know.

              I can only think that maybe within the Shaolin order, the precepts have been bent. Altering the entire process. Maybe this is thanks to comercialization, or maybe this started the day the Tang emperor permitted / ordered Shaolin to train monks in martial practices thus creating the "Wuseng". Who knows.

              I have been away from my school and not practicing lately because of Chinese New Year. I plan to have a long talk about this with my shifu when I return.
              "Winners turn to losers, losers are forgotten..." - A Tribe Called Quest

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              • LFJ

                I think they do. SHX has certification of his ordination and it has, I think, the 10 precepts. I mean I think there are 10. Its in UK and I'm in China but I'll dig it out when I get back in about 10 days.

                Chicken

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                • well, chicken, to name a few, for a monk who takes the ten precepts the precept of sexual misconduct more strictly becomes abstaining from all sexual activity and results in expulsion if its broken. and the 6th precept is not to accept gold or silver. in other words money or wealth. so those monks who are running schools and charging a fortune, if they took the 10 precepts, are going against their own vows. unless that money is used solely to pay the bills to have a place to teach and the excess is offered to help others, not to get one's own pay for "work" in teaching the dharma. thats a red flag right there.

                  Comment


                  • as i have found, there is really only one way to reconcile any of this. i base the following on my knowledge of buddhist monasticism from all traditions and from the words of master shi decheng. but it is still an unconfirmed hypothesis to me.

                    first, the levels within shaolin:

                    1. sujiadizi- secular disciple
                    2. wuseng- martial monastic sangha member
                    3. wenseng- scholar monastic sangha member
                    4. shami- novice candidate for monkhood
                    5. heshang- fully ordained monk

                    wuseng and wenseng are considered members of the laity because they only take the five precepts, except when in the temple (then ten precepts, including celibacy). however, they are chujiadizi rather than sujiadizi. meaning they have left home. a monastic disciple rather than a secular disciple. yet still laity. (a special group unique to shaolin)

                    they are referred to as sengren as all monks are. seng meaning sangha and ren meaning people. members of the monastic sangha. so "monk" may be a misleading term for them as they are wu or wen seng, not heshang.

                    also, chujiadizi, like sujiadizi, is a generic term for those who have "left home" as apposed to "secular" or non-monastic disciples in the sujiadizi. all heshang are considered chujiaren, people who have "left home".

                    wuseng and wenseng are considered both sengren (members of the monastic sangha) and chujiadizi/chujiaren (people who have left home) yet they are still members of the laity due to their level of precepts. (not fully precepted heshang)


                    so to break it down:

                    1) being a sujiadizi, a secular disciple and member of the laity, i receive the three refuges and the five precepts. i cannot precept anyone at any level as i am not a monastic.

                    2) being a chujiadizi, a monastic disciple yet member of the laity, either wuseng or wenseng, i receive the three refuges and five precepts but observe 10 when in the temple. but since i am a monastic sangha member (sengren) i have the authority to precept anyone at the level of sujiadizi or wuseng/wenseng but none higher because my own precepts are not above this. (but the good news is i am still laity and can have babies!)

                    3) being a shami, a novice candidate for monkhood, i receive the three refuges and the ten precepts (including celibacy, i live in the temple anyway). yet i do not have permission to be considered sengren until i turn 20. as such i cannot precept others at any level not yet being officially a monastic. when i come of age it is my choice to fully ordain as a heshang or take the lesser as a layman member of the monastic sangha, either as a wuseng or wenseng.

                    5) being a heshang, a fully ordained monk, i have received the three refuges, 10 precepts and full pratimoksha precepts. i have the authority to precept anyone at any level from sujiadizi to heshang.

                    also, the bodhisattva precepts are open to anyone but a requirement for the heshang. meaning a heshang must be celibate (from the pratimoksha precepts) and vegetarian (from the bodhisattva precepts). but the laity, whether sujiadizi or wuseng/wenseng can make the choice on either celibacy or vegetarianism, except for when in the temple where the 10 precepts including celibacy are observed as well as the bodhisattva precepts where vegetarianism is included. (shami always included here)

                    -----

                    as i have found, this is the only way to reconcile a wuseng having children and eating meat yet still being monastic without being expelled, and with the authority to precept sujiadizi or other wuseng/wenseng under them. because they are monastic yet still laity due to the level of their precepts.

                    but again, its something to bring up with the shifu.

                    Comment


                    • Ha ha ha ha grand master of my lineage was Darth Vader himself!!!
                      But Ironcross don't forget you need a shaolin name! Use the Yan generation as it is the main force behind all the crap comming out of shaolin today.
                      Greatings from stockholm shaolin temple/ secret qi gong master shi Yan-LU

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                      • Good work LFJ ! Just out of curiosity, where did you learn so much about the intricacies of Buddhism ? Is it just an interest or yours, was it a major in school, and / or are you Buddhist yourself ?

                        Sorry to pry.
                        "Winners turn to losers, losers are forgotten..." - A Tribe Called Quest

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                        • sorry, baiwanxi- i think you asked me that question before but i didnt reply.

                          i've been buddhist most of my life. i've studied theravada buddhism with immigrant monks from thailand at the buddhadharma meditation center of chicago. and chinese chan (linji lineage) from foguangshan monastery in taiwan, and the caodong lineage within shaolin.

                          i spent a lot of time in studying theravada buddhism and find a strong base there but consider myself caodong chan in practice.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by LFJ
                            well, chicken, to name a few, for a monk who takes the ten precepts the precept of sexual misconduct more strictly becomes abstaining from all sexual activity and results in expulsion if its broken. and the 6th precept is not to accept gold or silver. in other words money or wealth. so those monks who are running schools and charging a fortune, if they took the 10 precepts, are going against their own vows. unless that money is used solely to pay the bills to have a place to teach and the excess is offered to help others, not to get one's own pay for "work" in teaching the dharma. thats a red flag right there.
                            Yes, i've read it, with SHX, and we've discussed the implications of the percepts and how they currently affect Shaolin and the Wuseng today. SHX I believe is at level 4.

                            I just want to clarify, in Shaolin they don't differentiate between the married and the celibate, so in relation to Shaolin his status hasn't changed, however, we both accept that he's not a "monk" from a Western cultural perspective, and we don't bill him as one.

                            A lot of people think that all orange skinheads are monks... that's not the case, the orange suits are the Shaolin fighting uniform, they are as military fatigues. I frequently have to back track from gracious introductions, and boastful claims of friends and students, and explain that he is a warrior and not a monk.

                            Shaolin today is side-stepping the celibacy issue. I think its progressive and I think that anyone who throws the baby out with the bath water on account of the fact that they are not celibate, is rash, judgemental and short-sighted. All qualities that are not associated with enlightenment, I might add.

                            LFJ I'm not quite clear what your position is on all of this (and am not asking you to divulge it), but I do appreciate you and your manner of enlightening us further on this and other matters.

                            Many thanks

                            Chicken

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Chicken
                              SHX I believe is at level 4.
                              i still dont know what these "levels" are or what they refer to, and no one else seems to know or be willing to share it thus far.

                              I just want to clarify, in Shaolin they don't differentiate between the married and the celibate, so in relation to Shaolin his status hasn't changed, however, we both accept that he's not a "monk" from a Western cultural perspective, and we don't bill him as one.
                              why wouldnt shaolin differentiate between the two? the monastic tradition is still from shakymuni's lineage following the vinaya set up by him, in which there is a big differentiation here.

                              also, as far as i know, buddhist monasticism is not a western cultural heritage. so i cant really take a western cultural perspective on what a "monk" is or isnt. i take it straight from the ordination requirements and sustenance.

                              A lot of people think that all orange skinheads are monks... that's not the case, the orange suits are the Shaolin fighting uniform, they are as military fatigues. I frequently have to back track from gracious introductions, and boastful claims of friends and students, and explain that he is a warrior and not a monk.
                              they may have become such but the orange robes and shaved heads have always been buddhist monastic traditions since shakyamuni buddha. though it had been practiced even before his spiritual persuit began. i think this is an important thing to remember. because with just anyone running around wearing the robes, any appearance of behavior can be given to the dharma's image. not a good thing. also, as the buddha stipulated, monks are not to give out two things- their robes and their alms bowls. when you find these robes in the stores, they are meant for you to buy as gifts to monastics, not for you to wear as fashion or training clothes. but people in shaolin dont care anymore about tradition and respect to the vinaya, or even to the buddha and monastic traditions of the venerable ordained who teach us. its a shame in my opinion. if i didnt know the good merits of shaolin practice i would be in the same boat as the rest of the buddhist world that views shaolin as a joke and a shameless misrepresentation of buddhist monasticism- which in some cases, if things were the way they seemed, it is.

                              Shaolin today is side-stepping the celibacy issue. I think its progressive and I think that anyone who throws the baby out with the bath water on account of the fact that they are not celibate, is rash, judgemental and short-sighted. All qualities that are not associated with enlightenment, I might add.
                              but you cant really side-step it and still claim to be a buddhist monastic sangha. it is no longer buddhist ordination in such a case.

                              LFJ I'm not quite clear what your position is on all of this
                              i think the last post i gave about levels would be a satisfactory solution for all. wuseng could be monastic yet still have kids. the heshang are still following and upholding all the pratimoksha vows. so it would be good.

                              however, i dont know if thats the way things are running. i doubt it. because more and more the wuseng just want to pass themselves off as fully ordained monks who practice martial arts. and in that case, the simple fact is that the wuseng with children have automatically been disrobed and expelled for the rest of their lives. yet when they claim monkhood but lead a family life its really a shameless misrepresentation.

                              again, the only way i could find to reconcile the problem and still consider shaolin an authentic and respectable buddhist monastic lineage, is what i typed up in the last post.

                              Comment


                              • Much respect for your devotion to your spirituality LFJ ! I was raised a Christian but never was head over heels for it. I'm not such a fan of the blind faith thing.

                                Anyway, thanks for the "enlightenment" (pardon the pun, couldn't help myself). I always find it interesting when I stumble across a westerner who is actualy serious about his spirituality or religion. I've become a bit jaded from years of being around so-called-Christians.
                                "Winners turn to losers, losers are forgotten..." - A Tribe Called Quest

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