alcohol

[cassius]

what's the tcm view on alcohol?

is any good for you? or is it no go?

[daodejing]

Alcohol causes the qi to rise, float, and become scattered. In addition it creates damp heat in the body.

So no, its not a wonderful thing. But it's ok in moderation.

[TJQstudent]

My instructor tells me a small serving of alcohol may have an purifying effect as long as long as you do
strengthening, cleansing and centering/balancing qi gong exercises regularly. However; if you drink enough
alcohol to feel that you have been drinking alcohol, you have drank too much already(sorry my poor english grammar here). I'm sure there are different views on this amongst TCM practitioners just like there are different
views on this amongst practitioners of western medicine.

The chinese have a long tradition for alcohol, but many traditional("early" or "primitive") chinese beverages(rice wine and spirits) are said to have less impurities than most western traditional spirits and beers (such as mead, vodkas, regular corn spirits, beer and so on). Don't know where I heard this last part, though, so it's hard to say if there is any truth too it.

[blooming tianshi lotus]

I think just about everyone here knows that I do the glass of either red wine ( white rice wine if I'm in China) as a real and neccessary daily part of my optimal health regime. The reason I do this, is because to get adequate sulfur intake for max immunity and joint health , I practically triple up on "recommended " daily protein intake ( via milk / egg whites and protein shakes etc). Besides have a thing with excess carbs, at times I do a sh*t load more exercise than many ppl on standard recommendations , and not finding so many complex carbs neccessary or as efficient , I need the energy to run the regime and be at my most cleanly fueled. ( Awesome stuff btw if you haven't tried it!!)
Protein does have energy of it's own, but to get to it ( and stop you feeling stodgy and lethargic) , you need to destablise the plasma of it. This is where the alcohol comes in. The only problem then though is that it's still in your stomache / intestines and loose. If you add a good fibre or lipid tea like great impressions ( from any good asian store) or a strong senna tea and or senna tabs with a goods lot of water at night before bed, when you wake and do your first protein and chase it with your alcohol, you should cleanse well and have all the benifits I described above to run your day at high beam for as long as you need.

( immunity side note : immunity is in regard to red blood cells and lymph nodes and lymphocytes which are clusters of toxin filled plasma in the blood , also proteinically rich and prone to the same process with alcohol ingestion, depleting the plasma integrity and burning off the rubbish ready to flush, hence inclusion above)

This is likely why, you don't get drunk. Protein inhibits alcohol absorbtion and this is why..it's busy catabolising!

The reason I'm re-opening this thread though, is that I just read a great last night by one Doc's disciple brothers on a recent trip to china. He talks about being given sanshedan ( three snake bile) as a treatment for pnuemonia. I decided that it would have to be some sort of agent that breaks down mucus ( obviously being acidic and likely bitter which will dry the resulting stomache damp out a bit aswell). I nearly asked if anyone knew if it could be used to replace alcohol in the protein catabolism , since I've half had an eye out for something I trade it for, but In the mean time though, I hit google with it and came up with these http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=e...atabolism&meta=

They're not the greatest links, but it does correlate. As far as physiology goes , it's your liver that produces bile naturally and this is also it's purpose. For tcm though, because sometimes various organs etc need a boost, it's recommended ( and particularly for anger or irritablity ) to have red wine and pork. I think the pork with the protein and the fat, gives it something to react with......... like sugar in alcohol production.

Really good piece of information Imo, but if anyone can either clarify or tell me where I can get some and what it sells for, I'd appreciate it. No sh*t, AA could've just become redundant!!!! If I find some, I'll let you know how I go


cheers
BL

[master splinter]

i really beg to differ, the only benefit from alchohol for me in regards to training is the fact that it loosens me up a little and im less hesitant to whoop ass, but my balance coordination and technique are pretty much comprimised, id say alko is more beneficial when youre not training, if you really tried to notice, you could probably feel the slight error in your balance the next day.

[zachsan]

haha, slight?

[blooming tianshi lotus]

The above is just medical fact. no-one mentioned abusing it.

[daodejing]

We use a concoction called three snake wine to treat arthritis. Works wonders, but its rediculously toxic, and if you drink too much of it, you'll die. (the concoction is basically just a jar of wine with three live poisionous snakes placed inside and left to brew for a month)

But I can't say I've heard of sanshedan. Just sanshejiu.

[blooming tianshi lotus]

san she dan is 3 snake bile, conversely to san she jiu which is as you know Daodejing is three snake wine. I actually just spoke to the highly reknowned tcm practioner of Beijing University Med grad fame , Dr. David Tu, at the Diamond Bridge Clinic Brisabane in regard to this whole discussion.
He seemed to have no trouble understanding where I drew my logic and needed no explaining to noe elaboration of any of the concepts invloved. He tells me that, as his official position, yes the snake bile would work in lieu and it would cost Aus$10 a bag, 1 bag one day. He did also mention that without knowing the entirity of my diet etc, that that dose would be variable and again would obviously differ from individual to individual.
I didn't have alot of time to chat with him on it, so I'll look into it some more, weigh it up financially vs benifit to health as the alcohol replacement and I'll let you know what I decide and how I go.

cheers

Blooming Lotus

[daodejing]

What exactly is your sanshedan made of? Is it an herbal concoction or are your drinking tea made of powdered snake gallbladders?

If you can list the ingredients, in latin or pinyin, I can let you know what its doing in tcmese.

In reference to your dietary intake of wine, remember that rice wine absorbs a great deal of energy from the earth, and thus in moderation can be used to strengthen the spleen, while grape whine absorbs most of its energy from the sun and thus causes a headier buzz due to leading the qi upward.

As a meat, pork is used more for tonifying the kidneys. Liver tonics are fairly rare in tcm, since most liver patterns are excess or mixed excess-deficiency patterns, however liver yin and blood can be tonified as needed.

If you're trying to cool the liver and tonify blood/yin (a useful thing to do for irritability, mood swings, and issues with anger which you mentioned) wine is not a very good idea. Instead you should add lycium berries to your daily diet, which can be eaten dried, raw, or steeped in tea or drinking water. If you want a protein based nutritional supplement for liver yin, eat rabbits not pork.

If you're looking to detoxify the liver consider herbs such as dandelion root, burdock, or goldenseal. But remember to consult your medical proffessional about taking detoxifying purgative herbs, and also remember that goldenseal should never be taken for more than two weeks, and that goldenseal root will counteract anticoagulant medications such as warfarin.

Hope that helps. Good luck drinking your bile, I look forward to finding out what's in it.

[daodejing]

Incidentally, lycium berries are also called chinese wolfberry, and the pinyin name is gou qi zi.

[zachsan]

eat rabbits like TOBY!!

i still don't understand the point of all this. a replacement for alcohol? you all are nuts.

[blooming tianshi lotus]

lol............ well now we've cleared that up ( ), ...... back to tcm.

I considered your argument last night Daodejing, and on a strict hardcore tcm principaled discussion, I think what it comes down to is 2 totally different methods of attack concept.

What we're looking at here is a yang approach vs yin. The herbs you are describing are for yang support of the organs to boost their performance in metabolism. As we know, the human liver produces bile itself and it's primary role to do the same action but in the blood stream, the bile somewhat though now diluted, breaking through the plasma of the lymphocytes in the lymph nodes , otherwise termed red blood cells and indicative of disease and toxation .
If you're familar with western medicine / physiology and disease, it's important to note here that as far as longevity and immunity and general health goes, it's through the disipation and flushing of these toxins that we retain health and disease 'freedednous' (for another BLic piece of terminolgy) .
At optimum, we want this occur as soon as possible after those toxins ( anything not neccessary to promote and support health ) hit our body. Prevention is better than I cure I hear

What I'm talking about though, is a yin concept , where we don't have to wait for it the protein to be metabolised ( or absorbed and integrated into our system ) before it's broken down to the state our body needs it in ( catabolised ). This way , not only do you cut out aot of uneccessary activity and eating ( being metabolism requires more carbohydrate to be effective) , it's done independantly of our organ function and the stomache / intestine and bowel system works as a mixing bowl, defining it as a yin function. This is the whole point of the catabolism is that by doing it this way, you A: take the load off your organs and B: the proteinic nourishment in it's most effcient state asap, allowing the energy etc to be used almost immediately. This way, because you also need less carbohydrate to facilitate it, you get to cram in more liquid protein for your punch and besides the waste that the cleanse is designed to take care of, all you end up with ( after the catabolism ) is pure energy and max immunity / gh production potential and so forth.

On snake bile though, that's all it is Daodejing. I was talking to my grossed out little brother about this last night and I realised that if bile production does this in us naturallly, via what our liver produvces, and granted that snake bile is obviously ( considering venom ph) much more potent or contrated, @ $10 a day( bearing their little organs in mind), there must be a bigger animal we can milk for bile that'll allow us to do it cheaper.
Bearing in mind the number of snake farms around ( or lack of ) vs tcm practioners , I think someone must be already be onto it and have available another bilic source.
I'm going to continue to do some research on who's selling what and I'll let you know what I come up with.

Thanks for the objective contribution !

cheers

Blooming Lotus

[master splinter]

3 snake juice? wtf? ill stick with tequila and mealworms. i could just imagine the acid reflux i would get from that.

id rather liquify some liver and shoot it up into my veins.

[daodejing]

I've already heard talk about starting snake farms in the u.s. for tcm purposes, but the real money is in arthritis supplements derived from venomous snakes. harvesting the bile is of secondary importance.

I'm not sure I can agree that your dietary theories will be healthy forever, but if they seem to be working for you that's cool.

As for venomous snake bile, it makes since. But milking bile from larger (or any animals for that matter) usually involves killing them. They tried milking bears, and the bears didn't do so well, so instead the chinese went back to the old system of just killing the bear, and selling the gallbladder to a tcm doctor. Oddly enough, bears are pretty endangered in china these days.

I would do more research into the traditional indications of prescription of snake bile if I were you. You said you observed it given to a patient with a chronic respiratory infection? Make sure there are no detrimental effects from long term use and no contraindications which apply to you.

Cause frankly, sanshedan sounds like some potent shit.

And rob, its 3 snake wine, not 3 snake juice. 3 venomous snakes, 1 jar of wine, 1 month to brew, and then 1 shotglass a day for arthritis.