gong fu vs. wushu

[doc]

True traditional kung fu style was trained to kill the enemy in the shortest amount of time with the least amount of effort.

Technically, then, "kung fu" first started when mankind started interacting with each other.

You can trace genuine, formalized fighting skills, competitions, and training, back past India. To Greece. The Greeks probably had the first real formalized reproduceable fighting systems.

[mortal]

When I look back and read the posts I found mine to be informative responses to what you posted.

All you do is ignore points I have made and then throw a dig back at me.

What makes you feel like where in 3rd grade? Your own responses perhaps.

For the most part I have treated you with respect that you didn't earn.

That ends from this point on punk. Your probably twelve anyway.

Now go do your spiritual mental kung fu training in the woods with your potbellied sifu from Kentucky.

It sounds like your the one who is wasting your money and your time.

[pazman]

Mortal, just a question: Where you do you train? What style?

[mortal]

I train with Zhang li Peng in traditonal Shaolin and Sifu Jose Grados in street combat Wing chun.

[kungfudork]

mortal,
so what is your opinion of Zhang Li Peng? do the forms you learn from him have any martial application or is it as you say "empty movements". would you consider him a skilled fighter or just a talua athalete? i mean no disrespect toward you or anyone else. its just after reading what you posted it seems you find shaolin "empty"

respectfully,
kungfudork

[dogchow108]

ah ill post anyway

Originally posted by zachsan
dogchow -

you make a number of good points that i believe are very close to the truth. but i disagree with you on a few.

first, if you practice gongfu today - any kind of gongfu - you are practicing something that has a long, rich history of spiritual and mental development, and a philosophical component. its roots were found in the shaolin temple, a buddhist monastery. it is not that gongfu contains martial arts as part of its training. gongfu is a martial art, and, as a complete martial art, it contains elements that are noncombative, and meant for the improvement of the human being. with the exception of some modern rapid CQC training systems (krav maga and RCAT, which are truly all about fighting and winning), the martial arts have always been about much, much more than simply fighting.

correction- if you practice traditional martial arts. i agre with what you said here, but the fact is there is a distinction between gongfu, martial arts and shaolin martial arts. and i dont think that the martial arts have always been about fighting. people have fought each other much longer than they have been spiritual. fighting has been around for much longer than spiritual practice. im not denying the spiritual aspect of chinese martial arts, but i am saying that are just that- an aspect, and they are not a MARTIAL art if you are not training to get better at fighting.

you're right that many people place too much emphasis on the "art" aspect of martial arts. to these people, i would agree with you in saying, take yoga or something similar. but there are also people that place way too much emphasis on the "martial" aspect, and these are the same ones that are constantly saying things like "try that on me on the street and i'll hand your ass to you". to these peole, in exactly the same vein, i say, buy a gun.

this is true- to forget the art aspect would be a shame. i agree. however, i really think the generic "buy a gun if you want to win" kinda gets old because the fact is you are much, much less likely to ever have to use a gun than you are to use your body. dont pretend not to know that a good enough fighter should be able to subdue an attacker without really hurting them or much less killing them.

as far as my example with yoga- i really want to know why a person would pick wushu/shaolin for "spiritual" training completely without any sense of intrigue from the fighting aspect. i think you'd be at least slightly dishonest with yourself for at least a few reasons. there are physical trainings just as difficult and impressive if not more than many martial arts. if you're into the "beauty" of it, there's ballet and/or dance or kaleidoscope dancing, which not only is much more physically and motionally impressive than many martial arts, but also draws on concepts pretty much paralelling chi and other philosophical items. then theres yoga.

even wushu looks VERY martial. the fact that you are attracted to a sport where you kick and punch and weild around weapons should tell you something. so i say, yes of course dont forget the art- but dont kid yourself either.

second, the martial aspects of gongfu were invented many, many years ago, as the most efficient means possible of keeping yourself safe in situations that were likely to arise at the time. for instance, a sword duel, or self-defense against a small gang of axe-wielding assholes. they trained in sword, staff, spear, and even wooden bench, because these were tools that there was a reasonable chance of finding and using. the martial arts changed to include what military technology existed.

times have changed. there are no more sword duels or axe-wielding gangs. now we have gun-wielding gangs instead. so, true "martial" skills have changed along with the available technology and social climate, just as they always have in the past. now, you're not gonna get in a knife duel. someone's gonna walk up behind you and stab you in the back, and that's the "fight". today's soldiers learn how to shoot, not how to cut with a sword. the police and military have created systems (the aforementioned krav maga and RCAT, among others) to help people deal with the situations that they realistically would be facing today. these are easy to learn, dependable, and probably the best response to situations in which you're unarmed or using a weapon is not appropriate. also, in some curriculums, you can learn the legal considerations that are a very real part of civilian self-defense today.

please dont take this as an attack, because i really am interested in what you have to say, but unless you live in Ramallah or some jungle in colombia, i really think you should drop the gun thing. its old, not to mention impractical for this arguement. people are all well aware of the ease at which you can go down and buy a gun and go to a shooting range to get good with it. ive been in a few fights, some with people of questionable respect to the law- and never has anyone pulled a gun out on me. ive been in a few fights but boy, ive seen a lot of them. i still see fights. how often have i seen someone pull out a gun? never.

also, the reason that i, at least, would take a traditional martial art rather than something like krav maga or (and i know im gonna get asked about this) brazilian ju jitsu, is because i think that the "art" aspect of these things has made it better than others. i dont think the art in it was necessarily something hippiish or spiritual at first as much as it was a guide for training. i dont buy that martial arts started in a buddhist temple.

but we still take gongfu, an old system with old defenses against old problems. yes, it's still very "martial", just as much as it's always been. but it's not gonna turn you into an unstoppable badass anymore. and if that's what you're paying for, you're being cheated out of your money. that's all.

- zach

when people evolve another set of arms, a third leg or a built in gun in their body, chinese martial arts will be "old". but i really see where it is you're coming from. i disagree, but were all entitled to our opinions. i really hope you come back and read this, because i would like feedback.

anyway, good luck with your pursuits,

DC

[mortal]

Zhang Li Peng is pound for pound as good as it gets at traditional kung fu and fighting.

Every move in the form has a martial application. I know that what he teaches is not empty movements. I wish I could say the same for my earlier training experiances in shaolin.

He is also the best Talou athlete I have ever saw. His wushu is awe inspiring. I am not training wushu with him. Just some basics in class. He teaches them as 2 seperate disciplines.

[zachsan]

alright, i lied. there's no work on my desk, and this is just starting to get interesting. thanks dogchow.

dogchow -

well i'll definitely accept that correction, and say, if you take traditional martial arts. but that's the topic of the thread, "gongfu vs. wushu". when we say gongfu, even if this isn't the literal translation, i assume we're talking about traditional chinese martial arts. almost all of these that are around today find their roots in the shaolin temple, and the rest still involve elements outside of combat, which was my point.

as for the gun thing, i don't actually think anyone should go out and buy a gun. i say it more in parody than anything else. i find it funny that some people are so fixated upon fighting, and what's streetworthy and what isn't. i'm just carrying on this obsession with violence to what i see as its natural conclusion. i don't own a gun, nor do intend to get one in the near future. what i'm trying to say is that attitudes that start with wanting to prove the combat-effectiveness of your art can end up getting you killed, because there is a bigger fish out there.

anyway, whether or not gongfu is still a valid means for self-defense. i absolutely think that the skills developed by old masters can still help us out in similar situations. and yes, there are still some similar situations today. but, while we haven't evolved any extra limbs or anything of the sort, some intangible elements have very much changed the face of fighting, and i believe that more modern training is better suited to today's environment. for instance:

certainly, most scuffles end without anyone needing to bring a gun into it. that means that, as long as no gun is brought into the picture, the situation is the same as in ancient china, right? not quite. because, while you're holding off that group of 3 thugs, you never know if the 3rd one is just a little bit crazier than his buddies, and has a gun tucked away in his belt. even the possibility of a firearm greatly changes the situation. you can no longer afford to deftly dodge between opponents and knock them out one at a time. manipulation of distance is a big component of any traditional martial art, and this is changed a whole lot when the situation becomes one of neutralizing potentially armed attackers, without all the information.

another example is self-defense laws. this is a big one. while this might not seem to be so important if you're actually involved in a violent situation, the moment you hit back, you're just an equal part of a consenting fight in the eyes of the law. whatever you do after that - for instance, breaking an opponent's arm - becomes your responsibility once the dust clears. this issue is almost never dealt with in gongfu schools, but i gather that jail time can be a whole lot worse than a broken nose.

drugs. as mentioned before in another thread, someone on PCP will not stop because of some strikes to their face or body. you just need to get out of there, and chances are you can't tell at a glance who's high and who's not. much like the gun thing, even the possibility of this situation changes an otherwise simple situation.

chivalry. we don't have it. if weapons are involved, you're much less likely to be involved in any kind of "fight" than a simple murder.

anyway, these are intangible situations that change things a lot. no, they don't completely turn the martial arts on their head, it's not like we evolved a third arm. but there are enough changes to warrant new and inventive solutions, or really, to merit the tweaking of something which really should be an ever-changing and growing discipline anyway. the practice of gongfu is an all-around good idea, on a number of fronts. but if you're fixated on one of those areas, there are other options that fit your needs better, in my opinion. as a side note, i think it's perfectly reasonable to be primarily concerned with self-defense and combat if you're in the police or the military (which is partly why i keep bringing them up), but if your work doesn't require you to be in danger regularly for the greater good, such an obsession is just unhealthy.

- zach

[doc]

In shaolin it is more about talou because that is all the younger generations care about. Looking good. Shaolin is becoming empty movements. Remnants of what it once was. The shaohongquan form taught and practiced by most monks is a perfect example of what I mean. It lacks the martial movements

Reality and perception, once again.

This statement is not true. There are many, many different fighting applications within Shao Hong Chuan. I think you just need to find a teacher that can and will show them to you. The last class I taught, I spent over an hour showing at least fifteen different fighting applications to one move of Shao Hong Chuan (ma bu dan bien). It's there. Trust me. Lots of stuff. The young uns in Shaolin nowadays focus on looking good, this is true. But, they're learning the same Shao Hong Chuan that was taught over a hundred years ago. The substance is the same, the emphasis might have changed.

[dogchow108]

zach- i agree with a lot of that. really, what you've done is put it in context. or, at least, a context. when i say gongfu, i generally mean to work hard at something, and in martial arts it generally is manifested in training particular skills that can make you a better fighter due to some acquired advantage. i agree with you that some poeple obsess over the fighting part, but then that goes back to the thing being a MARTIAL art, as opposed to some other one. you're bound to attract those types with a clice' like martial arts.

i guess i should go back and re-read the old posts to get back into the context of the thread, but yea if you put it is gongfu vs wushu, i understand how you're using the terms.

now, about things changing. i agree, theres new factors and fighting brings about different consequences today than it might have hundreds of years ago. but this is like asking why the lizard breaks its tail off. it can bleed to death, it leaves behind a location where a lot of fat (energy$$$) is stored, it fatigues, leaves a trail of blood that predators can use to track it and all sorts of ****. so why does it do it? it lives!

so with martial arts, regardless of all the **** you can get into for attacking someone and getting sued because you should have been able to practice restraint blablabla- a lot of people learn simply because fights are not something entirely unlikely, and in a fight most people would rather win than lose, and are often willing to do quite a bit to reach that end. hence the training in martial arts.

now, im not saying people shouldnt practice martial arts for spirituality. i'm also not saying people should not practice just for fighting- everyone has their reason. but really theres a reason martial arts evolved the way it did. famous martial artists are usually famous for being good fighters, and THEN something else. even if they consider themselves something else, and THEN good fighters.

anyway, i hope you get what im babbling about...


and i almost responded to that statement about shao hong chuen, but im not sure what the person meant. do you mean shao hong chuen is empty of application, or do you feel most teachers just teach it that way? i have found more applications that i know what to do with in that form, aside from what ive personally been taught.

[zachsan]

i absolutely agree that in general people are more concerned with getting out of a situation safely and soundly than they are with worrying about the legal repercussions. i am one of these people. if, for some reason, i don't think i'm gonna make it out alive unless i break the law, then quite simply, i'm gonna break the law.

but, in the united states at least, the law is pretty good with these things. you do have the right to use lethal force to protect yourself, if you're in danger of losing your life. the chance that i would need to break the law to save my own ass is relatively slim (assuming i've not involved in any already-illegal activities). what is more likely is that the training i've had promotes a use of force - for instance, countering a punch or a grab with an arm break - that just isn't legal.

an example is with some knife fighting systems. most teach some kind of disarm, and many follow the disarm with gutting the opponent like a fish. according to the law, a guy attacking you with a knife justifies using legal force to protect yourself. but the moment you disarm him, you're no longer in mortal danger, and any follow-up with a knife is gonna land you in jail for a long, long time.

so - assuming you're training with the intent of getting into a real fight and using your knowledge to protect you -what's the point in training, over and over again, techniques that will earn you jail time? there are modern systems that brief students on these issues and teach them defenses that are legal by today's standards. of course, just because you train in gongfu doesn't mean you can't follow the law in these cases. but you'd be training one thing and doing another in practice.

- zach

[meattosser]

Hey Zachsan, about the PCP drugged out crazed maniac thing... there are ways to take someone like that out, but the martial exponent would have to go that extra mile in their training. Shaolin martial arts weren't just considered devastating because of their technique, (though that would be reason enough) but major advantage was that many practicioners trained in skills like Iron Sand Palm, cotton palm (from taiji), and iron leg. Although a normal strike may not immediately take a drugged out nutcase to the ground, I'm fairly sure that a person with great internal power in their attacks/grappling (like Alexander Tao, for example, who can rip apart iron wire with his fingers. You don't want this dude to pinch ya! hahaa.), can control a situation much faster.

[shaolinstylee]

You should ask Doc's martial brother, Gene about this, he has a bunch of 1st hand stories aobut this exact stuff. He's posted some of his Rockmedic stories over on kung fu magazines forums.

[zachsan]

as an extension, i find it interesting that there's a military version and a civilian version of krav maga. i'm willing to bet that 95% of people, when given the choice between which style to take, would, in a heartbeat, say "military", because obviously, that's much more badass than the watered-down civilian system (and everyone wants to be a badass).

but if you think about it, it's not that the military doesn't trust these holy secrets with the masses. it probably has more to do with the fact that the civilian can't pull off the military applications (which are very, very lethal and to the point) without legal repercussions. so to train in the civilian style would help to cover one's ass legally, and after all, covering one's ass is what fighting is all about.

- zach

[mortal]

Actually if someone throws a punch at you and you break there arm it is hard to prove that breaking there arm was your intention. If there arm is hurt in the scuffle just pushing and shoving how could they say you intentionally broke it?

If you wind up and punch there face in where they need reconstructive surgery. They could say you should have hit them lighter.

I got this info from a guy that was in the police for 20 years and trains the Israel military in knife fighting. His whole shtick is the legality's of beating someone.

And knowing martial arts doesn't mean anything in court. Next your going to tell me "My hands are registered as lethal weapons "

Doc-
According to lipeng the xiaohongquan taught today is not the same one that has been taught for the last few hundred years at shaolin temple. I'm suprised you weren't aware of that. That is where I have been getting my info. Maybe he is wrong who knows.

I mean real applications. Like full body chinna. Not simple obvious ones like dropping into mabu under someones punch and punching them in the ribs. Or blocking and then striking in gongbu. Also the whole way the form is performed. When Lipeng demonstrated it he looked like a pro boxer shadow boxing. It had a ton of fajing and the stances weren't too low. All the other monks and students I have seen have 0 fajing. They just get as low as they can in gong bu and punch stiff and straight. Just doing the form in that way leaves out many true applications of your energy into the movement.

I didn't know you were teaching the classes down there now. Do you guys do pad work and sparring with the applications on a resisting partner?