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  • #16
    Remember Doc, you should know better than most poeple that, things are NEVER black and white.
    Oh, I fully understand that. And I never said that I like Bush. I don't think he's very bright, I think he's been handed everything in life, and I don't think he has a great ability to express himself. Doesn't make him a bad guy. He's not as glib as Clinton was, but, I like that. As you get older, you start to realize that the bull****ters tend to be very successful in life, to a point. And, there's a lot of them. I don't particularly like those types of people, because, I've got principles, and I certainly don't bull****.

    I think Bush has principles. OK, he's a moron, but he's got principles. And he's got good people around him. Well, maybe "good" is not the right word. Let's say, "knowledgeable". No bull**** kind of people.

    The people you want on your side when you're in a fight.
    Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

    "You're just a jaded cynical mother****er...." Jeffpeg

    (more comments in my User Profile)
    russbo.com


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    • #17
      i am so bored that i'm going to actually give meattosser a few reasons why he's wrong.

      america has done some pretty ****ed up **** in its time. just like every other country on this green earth. it's the job of our government to keep your ass safe, and it takes that job very, very seriously. each country in the world has that same responsbility to its citizens, and civilized countries all take that job seriously. this does not mean training and equipping an army and sitting on your ass. it would be great if things were that simple.

      but they're not, and to keep themselves safe, western countries conduct covert operations in other countries. we spy on our known enemies, we spy on our potential enemies and we spy on our friends. we do this because we're not idiots, and we know that good intelligence can make a world of difference to that most fundamental responsibility of the state, protecting its citizens. the problem is, this gets very legally and morally questionable at times. that's just the nature of the beast. we try to anticipate problems and solve them before they get serious, and sometimes it's just too late, and we feel that we have to solve a certain problem by any means necessary. anyway, mistakes are inevitable, and when you're the most powerful country in the world, you're gonna make a lot of them (saddam hussein, in my opinion the war on drugs, things you've mentioned, the list goes on).

      but you're talking as if america is an evil force with its eyes set on nothing but money and eventual world domination. it's easy to become disenfranchised with the world, we've all been there. but to take it to that kind of extreme view of our country is just laying the seeds for future problems.

      the fact is, as much as our fine country has a propensity for ****ing up, its fundamental task - to protect you, me and our way of life - has been successful so far. and you and i are enjoying the benefits of its success while we critique it from our personal computers with incredibly fast connections. at what cost, you ask? at the cost of human life. at the cost of innocent lives, in fact, some of our own and some from other countries. it sucks, but short of moving to mars, that's what we're gonna have to deal with on good ol' mother earth.

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      • #18
        I lost most of my respect for Bush when he spoke at Bob Jones University. The fuçker knew EXACTLY what he was doing when he spoke there. The wink wink nudge nudge of the old dixiecrat racists.

        When I found out he does not accept the fossil record and talks to God the rest of my respect went buh-bye. The **** his admin is trying to pull in Haiti and the Caribe is ridiculous.
        "Arhat, I am your father..."
        -the Dark Lord Cod

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        • #19
          no zachsan, wrong...

          Zachsan, I could tell you have some passion over the subject, as well as a few others here on the site. I respect that. The more important thing here, is that we're actually DEBATING these things in a friendly environment, instead of ignoring them, hoping these things will go away. It's not right for you to just flat out say "No Meat, you're wrong", unless you have some valid evidence to back that up. Don't think I'm some maniacal liberal who thinks America is the epitomy of evil. If you read my previous thread you would know that I had said, I still love America. I'll say it again to make it concrete, I love the USA! Always have, always will. But I'm not gonna sit by and say nothing while a few billionaire people start changing America's direction for the worse. I know you don't agree with everything I've said Zachsan. Don't think I love Clinton either. Both the Democrats AND the Republicans have bad people on them. That's just the way it is. There are good and bad people in most places in life. The CIA for example, has commited some serious war crimes; yet there are still a few CIA operatives that realize this and speak out the subject, many times they are fired in the process however. What makes me angry is that we usually go around judging other countries, saying whose "Evil" and whose not. Yet our country's gov't (many times without the consent/acknowledgement of the people) is willing to commit some SERIOUS attrocities to other nations, not "for the better of our people", but simply for the greed of a select few. Many of things you could learn about if you would simply go out and research them. The sad part is though, that many of us in America aren't much into history. So we don't really care to find out much of history in the first place. If you look at afghanistan, or Iraq. It's just history repeating itself. Our government is highly effective in covering its own ass. But that's the way of any Superpower. When the United States was being occupied by England, what did we do? Did we start a peaceful march and continue to do so until they left? Nope. We started a violent revolution. And many were quick to criticize the French people and government for being against the Iraq war. The average American doesn't remember just how important France has been to our development as a nation throughout its important history. Remember that it was France, who gave troops/money/support when we went to war in the Revolution. It was also France that gave the Statue of Liberty, arguably our most prized physical symbol of freedom, to the United States. When we do bad things unjustly to other countries we should have enough balls to admit it; instead of saying "Well, it's all their fault!" We should strive to recognize the basic human rights of every country in the world, not just our own. And if we make a mistake, we should try our best to resolve the situation in the most peaceful, humane manner. War brings out the worst in people. And it should always be the ABSOLUTE, LAST RESORT. No one likes to be occupied, not US, not IRAQ, not afghanistan (when they were occupied by SOVIETS). Everyone loves to be free. I've read conservative books, and I've read liberal books, and I've read books that fall somewhere in between. Ultimately I felt the right wing explanations were not cutting it. There just wasn't enough common sense and evidence to back up its points of view. Zachsan, I respect your point of view, as I have a friends that have beliefs similar to yours. That's okay, there's nothing wrong with that, as long as you honestly believe in your statements then that's good. As long as we have a strong, passionate, but fair debate, with intelligent, valid responses to each other, that's good. That's what a debate is all about. I know you don't agree with everything I'm saying here, but pretty much all the things I have stated here have a strong, valid background, and should be further investigated. I've already stated that there are many good books on the subject. Read "The War on Freedom, How and Why America was Attacked on 9/11" by Nafeez M. Ahmed. It's a tremendously informative book, one of the best I've read on the subject. Check it out on Amazon.com; it costed me less than twenty bucks. Even if you don't agree with everything in that book, go ahead and read it man, trust me. It's that detailed. Also, as far as my opinion on President Bush, well, he's an idiot. But I don't think he's behind many of these things. Paul Wolfowitz and Dick Cheney and very, very, very, smart guys. Wolfowitz himself was one of the major planners for the Iraq War. He's also one of Bush's chief advisors, (if I recall correctly). He's probably the one making the major decisions in the White House, in terms of Foreign Policy, more often than not. On a side note, for anyone out there interested, you should also learn about USA Foreign policy towards Central and South America. It's pretty nasty stuff. Like I said before though, not all people in our Gov't are bad. Many are true patriots, who really are trying to do the right thing. The sad part is though, that as long as a few bad people are in powerful positions, they can make a major influence on the whole direction the country takes.

          PS. Sorry I haven't been posting more often, but my internet connection has been acting a little weird lately...
          a true gongfu system must have the four major aspects of combat to be complete, "striking", "Kicking", Chin'na (joint-locking), and Shuai-Jiao (Wrestling)... in addition it must combine the internal with the external...

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          • #20
            i liked clinton. i don't like bush.

            anyway, as you have mentioned, we're a superpower. we got that way by ****ing over a lot of people. that's the only way anyone has gotten there throughout all of history.

            i don't know if i really qualify as a patriot. i'm a patriot in the sense that i appreciate how great my life is compared to the rest of the world, and i realize that that's because of my country. i'm a patriot in the sense that i believe in the basic ideals that our country was founded on. but i don't have any illusions about the sainthood of america compared to the rest of the world.

            my philosophy it that sense is, we're just as big assholes as everyone else, only we've got the bigger guns. so we cause a lot more damage in the long run. i'm not really saying that's right, and i'm not saying we deserve it for being the best. not everything we do is for the protection of our people, i agree. some of it, i'm sure, is out of greed. but some people are greedy, and some of these greedy people are ensuring our high standard of living. the most we can do is watch our leaders and try to elect the most honest ones we can find into office. but that's not always gonna happen, and starting an outcry about the atrocities of america in the past, the result of dishonest leaders, doesn't seem to have much of a purpose to me. as far as the present goes, now that might be important, because it determines who we vote for when the next elections come around. myself, i'm not voting for bush.

            - zach

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            • #21
              Indeed. The sad part about voting for someone nowadays is that, first off, it all feels way too much like some freakin' circus on wheels. The people's vote is less important than the electoral vote. Go figure. And then there's the campaigns. We basically have only 2 choices, Dems or Republicans, since independent candidates just can't hang with the millions of dollars that the Dems and Republicans have. I don't particularly like Kerry too much, but he's pretty much the only choice if we want to throw Bush's ass out of office. Regarding my references to America's foreign policy in the past, I bring it up simply because we many times repeat the same mistakes, over and over. That's why it's important to know your history well. So we can at least, sort of, have an overall more complete idea of what has worked, and what hasn't. I say we should just make Dave Chapelle for president, lol. But then he'd probably just get shot, haha. Bad things happen to good people, I guess (Gandhi, why'd they have to shoot gandhi? The sick bastards, heh. Martin Luther King, Patrice Lamumba...) The road of good is always tougher than the road of evil I guess, heh. Hey, by the way Zach, isn't that Guy Pierce on your picture (from the Time Machine)?
              a true gongfu system must have the four major aspects of combat to be complete, "striking", "Kicking", Chin'na (joint-locking), and Shuai-Jiao (Wrestling)... in addition it must combine the internal with the external...

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              • #22
                america and europe is one big misunderstanding, this world was never created to be able to withstand the destruction which is the price for our so beloved high standards of living. The way we live now is one big misunderstanding...
                USA is inhabited by app. 5% of the world's population and uses 30% of it's resources, so if all the world was living with our "high standards" we would need SIX planets like Earth !!!!
                I don't think all this shít is worth any patriotic efforts to defend.

                But when all the world is dead, Earth will slowly rebuild itself like it has done so many times before in prehistoric times, and a new lifeform will inhabit this wonderful world once again...

                peace

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                • #23
                  it's a guy named jeff buckley, one of the greatest rock musicians of the early 90s. he walked into a river and died.

                  asger, you're crazy.

                  - zach

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                  • #24
                    meattosser, try acquainting yourself with the use of paragraphs.

                    It makes it easier for everyone else.

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                    • #25
                      Hahah, sorry Cassius, you're right. I gotta start using paragraphs more often. Hey Zach, have you checked out the book by Nafeez M. Ahmed yet?
                      a true gongfu system must have the four major aspects of combat to be complete, "striking", "Kicking", Chin'na (joint-locking), and Shuai-Jiao (Wrestling)... in addition it must combine the internal with the external...

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                      • #26
                        USA is inhabited by app. 5% of the world's population and uses 30% of it's resources,
                        HEY.

                        My Porsche Turbo uses a lot of gasoline. OK? You guys got a problem with THAT?

                        OMG, LOL
                        Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

                        "You're just a jaded cynical mother****er...." Jeffpeg

                        (more comments in my User Profile)
                        russbo.com


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                        • #27
                          Ahh, yes, our great addiction to petroleum. Damn you Doc, for having too many cool cars, hahaha.
                          a true gongfu system must have the four major aspects of combat to be complete, "striking", "Kicking", Chin'na (joint-locking), and Shuai-Jiao (Wrestling)... in addition it must combine the internal with the external...

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                          • #28
                            meattosser, i am not a huge fan of political nonfiction. pretty much, i read the communist manifesto and i was done with it. i'm gonna stick to fiction for the time being and remain an uneducated brute.

                            anyway, does it say anything besides "america sucks and that's why we shouldn't have invaded iraq?"

                            - zach

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                            • #29
                              "An uneducated brute." Ha haha. Eloquently put.
                              As to the book saying "America sucks and we shouldn't have invaded Iraq", hah, it never says that. Especially not in that tone. Like I have said before, this book has a tremendous amount of research and effort in it. It presents a massive amount of information, documents, (including an interesting chapter on "Operation Northwoods"), etc.. Also, this book mainly focuses on Afghanistan, the Soviets, United States, the nearby regions, and ultimately all the events that led up to the 9/11 tragedy. It doesn't really mention the current War in Iraq, mainly because this book was done before the "Shock and Awe" Bombing campaign and subsequent invasions, began. If you want specific information towards Iraq and the events that led up the war, then Nafeez M. Ahmed has a newer book called "Behind the War on Terror: Western Secret Strategy and the Struggle for Iraq", another immensely well documented book. Just go to amazon.com and search for "Nafeez Ahmed", it should take you to his books; or if you want, this link should show you the Iraq book...

                              a true gongfu system must have the four major aspects of combat to be complete, "striking", "Kicking", Chin'na (joint-locking), and Shuai-Jiao (Wrestling)... in addition it must combine the internal with the external...

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                              • #30
                                Ahmed's meticulous research into the secret history of Western maneuverings in the Middle East since the collapse of the Ottoman Empire reveals the actual causes of the first Gulf War,
                                From the book review. That says it all.

                                More liberal dribble.
                                Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

                                "You're just a jaded cynical mother****er...." Jeffpeg

                                (more comments in my User Profile)
                                russbo.com


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