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  • #16
    Remember something.

    When these younger generation guys "enter Shaolin", they predominantly either enter the wushu guan because they're talented, or, they've been on a few performance tours (generated from some of the better talent at some of the schools).

    If you want to refer to any of these individuals as monks, you have to define what a monk is. And therein lies the slippery slope.
    Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

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    • #17
      Originally posted by SongshanMonk
      At any rate I think because the "monks" enter shaolin at a very young age their lives are of basically Shaolin Temple and martial arts. As they get older past their teens of course they body goes through changes and yes they discover girls.
      This is where the western delusions with Shaolin starts. We have this romantic view that they get left as orphans at the Temple gates and the kind abbot takes them in.
      Time to smell the coffee!

      Traditionally, you went to warrior school near the temple, eventually if your gongfu was good enough you would fall under the eye of one of the warrior monks. I think this is more akin to the football talent scouts that go round in the junior leagues watching out for talent. They then get invited to train with one of these warriors, the warriors train them up until they could get through the temple entrance rites. (Exactly the same with football / soccer). Basically only the best would-be entrants would get through. They then trained in the Temple for usually around 3 years... where they would learn the Shaolin meaning of life and get cranked up to full-blown warriors. After that the Temple would cast them back out to lead their lives in the world. In the event that the Temple had problems, or the emperor called on the Temple to sort out his problems, the Temple would call them back in. Much like the T.A. or home army works today.

      The same thing is happening today only the entrances rites have stopped being that you have to fight your way in... now you have to perform your way in, with wushu. If you get in, they train you up for about 3 years, and then Tao takes over.... a very few stay on in the Temple. And as it has always been most of the warriors that you come accross today are following their Taoist paths in the real world.

      And as Doc was just saying, its actually worse than that. The Wushuguan dormitory, where they all lived, which was infested with rats and other unmentionables was demolished a few years back. So they don't even live on site any more.

      Also, very few of them find girfriends. Their parents call them back to their villages to meet their girlfriends, when they want grandchildren.

      So it ain't what we all expect, but actually once you've got past projecting onto them what you want them to be, and accept them as they are... they have all probably practised Shaolin full time for 7 or 8 years. 6 days a week at least 6 hours a day, 50 weeks a year. That is Gongfu... they are the real deal and they all know intimately what Chan is, as a result. Chan / Zen Buddhism is Shaolin Buddhism. They are all advanced Chan practitioners... their relatively deep familiarity with it, renders them all "holy" men in relation to our own dabblings. For me its that part of the Shaolin that makes them "monks"; being married or staying celibate has no bearing on this.

      Chicken
      Last edited by Chicken; 01-31-2007, 10:39 PM.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Chicken
        accept them as they are... they have all probably practised Shaolin full time for 7 or 8 years. 6 days a week at least 6 hours a day, 50 weeks a year. That is Gongfu... they are the real deal and they all know intimately what Chan is, as a result. Chan / Zen Buddhism is Shaolin Buddhism. They are all advanced Chan practitioners... their relatively deep familiarity with it, renders them all "holy" men in relation to our own dabblings. For me its that part of the Shaolin that makes them "monks"; being married or staying celibate has no bearing on this.
        That's a definition there! We could say that's what separates them from the average person or even the average CMA practitioner. Western eyes make it hard to see beyond a façade that we’re probably at least partially responsible for.

        I’ve never been to China and most of the non-ma Chinese I know or have met are in the medical field; many have been very inquisitive when they find out that I practice Kung Fu. Despite the questions, most have said that they have no desire to practice MAs. This leads me to believe that many Chinese just do not care much about martial arts and a lot of Shaolin’s future success requires them to cater to Westerners. Am I wrong in assuming this?

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        • #19
          SubXinu

          There are hundreds of thousands if not quite millions of people practising martial arts in China. In the Dengfeng area alone there are more than 100,000 practising Shaolin full-time. Outside China, in London for example, you find more Chinese in Shaolin classes than reflects the proportion of Chinese in the London population. This very generally indicates that Chinese are more likely to practise MA than Westerners.

          So back to your assumptions.... I think that many Chinese do care about Martial Arts. You seem to be hypothesising that Shaolin is internationalising out of fear of becoming extinct. Shaolin has proven itself... it has survived in China since before 500AD. If nobody ever practised Shaolin again outside China, I don't think it will make any difference whatsoever... Shaolin will prevail in China, because as a phenomenon its got legs... it will survive.

          Shaolin is internationalising in my mind for one very simple reason.

          $$$$$

          Any money coming into a country from outside stimulates the economy to grow. The Chinese Govt is trying to sustain a double digit econmic growth rate. The Chinese govt realises that Shaolin can bring in foreign tourist $$$$ from outside China...

          Secondly, Henan is one of the poorest provinces in China. The people up in Henan are mostly dirt poor. Those that can work out how to supply the things that the tourists want to spend their money on, can do so and climb their way out of abject poverty. They spend the money they earn from Foreign interest in Shaolin in Henan, and this Foreign Investment then gets into the Henan economy which should help bring the entire province out of poverty.

          So actually the dynamic is simple... they are poor, Shaolin is one of the only things they uniquely have that they can leverage to get an income from so they can survive more comfortably. Given that they are poor - and I mean really, really poor - I don't think we should resent them the $$$$.

          Chicken

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Chicken
            This is where the western delusions with Shaolin starts. We have this romantic view that they get left as orphans at the Temple gates and the kind abbot takes them in.
            Time to smell the coffee!

            Traditionally, you went to warrior school near the temple, eventually if your gongfu was good enough you would fall under the eye of one of the warrior monks. I think this is more akin to the football talent scouts that go round in the junior leagues watching out for talent. They then get invited to train with one of these warriors, the warriors train them up until they could get through the temple entrance rites. (Exactly the same with football / soccer). Basically only the best would-be entrants would get through. They then trained in the Temple for usually around 3 years... where they would learn the Shaolin meaning of life and get cranked up to full-blown warriors. After that the Temple would cast them back out to lead their lives in the world. In the event that the Temple had problems, or the emperor called on the Temple to sort out his problems, the Temple would call them back in. Much like the T.A. or home army works today.

            The same thing is happening today only the entrances rites have stopped being that you have to fight your way in... now you have to perform your way in, with wushu. If you get in, they train you up for about 3 years, and then Tao takes over.... a very few stay on in the Temple. And as it has always been most of the warriors that you come accross today are following their Taoist paths in the real world.

            And as Doc was just saying, its actually worse than that. The Wushuguan dormitory, where they all lived, which was infested with rats and other unmentionables was demolished a few years back. So they don't even live on site any more.

            Also, very few of them find girfriends. Their parents call them back to their villages to meet their girlfriends, when they want grandchildren.

            So it ain't what we all expect, but actually once you've got past projecting onto them what you want them to be, and accept them as they are... they have all probably practised Shaolin full time for 7 or 8 years. 6 days a week at least 6 hours a day, 50 weeks a year. That is Gongfu... they are the real deal and they all know intimately what Chan is, as a result. Chan / Zen Buddhism is Shaolin Buddhism. They are all advanced Chan practitioners... their relatively deep familiarity with it, renders them all "holy" men in relation to our own dabblings. For me its that part of the Shaolin that makes them "monks"; being married or staying celibate has no bearing on this.

            Chicken

            Yeah basically. I don't think anyone ever believed the "orphan on the door step" theory on how the children became monks. Clarifying on what I said is usually the "monks" began their training at a young age. Like Doc said they were probably already above average performers when they started training at Shaolin.

            As far as what defines a monk, to me its Kung fu. I dont see Shaolin Temple monks as religious ordained ones. Li Peng has made it clear that when he was at Shaolin he learned Kung Fu and didn't follow the "buddhist religious" path. Being that Buddhism is considered China's national religion, I am sure most chinese are familiar with buddhist scriptures and such. I think Shaolin Temple would get a lot less criticism if they presented themselves as more of a martial arts entity rather than a religious one.
            http://americanshaolinkungfu.org/3.html

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            • #21
              Are the "Fake" Shaolin the most Buddhist?

              You know what follows on from the fact that the Temple Warriors were brought in solely because they were the best at performing? It follows that the real Shaolin Buddhist convert, who was sincerely into the faith, moreso than the wushu, did not get accepted into the Temple.

              I suspect that until Shaolin starts a parallel program for accepting people for their faith, as well as the programme accepting people for their performing abilities, I think that Shaolin is going to have a rather shallow Buddhist ring to it...

              In the meanwhile, its possible that you are more likely to learn Shaolin Buddhism from the so called "fakes", i.e. the ones with average gongfu, who never got into the temple, than from the ones with amazing gongfu in the performance teams who found their way to the West.

              And this is how it always has been. The Temple started training warriors to protect the Temple, not because they thought they would help the Temple on its own path to enlightement. Well, other than in the aspect that, a well fortified and protected Temple can much better get on with the business of its own enlightment, than one with shoddy defenses.

              Even the warriors themselves... go to one type of Shaolin if they want to learn Wushu, then seek out a completely different type of Shaolin if they want Buddhist enlightment. Its also the case that the Warriors themselves don't think that their friends who didn't get into the Temple are any less worthy then themselves... and of course they would think that... because that is what buddhism teaches you. That no sentinent being is better than another.

              I think us post 2nd-world war generations so used to instant gratification, are guilty of wishful thinking and wanting to have our cakes and eat it, in that we expect to get both the Wushu and the Buddhism in one wrapper.

              Its not realisitic.

              Chicken

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Chicken
                So back to your assumptions.... I think that many Chinese do care about Martial Arts. You seem to be hypothesising that Shaolin is internationalising out of fear of becoming extinct. Shaolin has proven itself... it has survived in China since before 500AD. If nobody ever practised Shaolin again outside China, I don't think it will make any difference whatsoever... Shaolin will prevail in China, because as a phenomenon its got legs... it will survive.
                Thanks for the clarification. I suppose I should have made myself clearer; when I used the word "success" I meant monetarily. I have no doubt that Shaolin will survive! Although, with China basically interweaving the communist and capitalist systems, those that make more money seem to be in better favor with the government. But, you hit this point already. lol. My assumptions came from my interaction with the Chinese educated I have met here. It could just be the mentality of those who leave China and have their minds set on trying to fully assimilate?

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                • #23
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