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  • #46
    And I thank's for writing about your experience! Your past couple posts have been the only thing worth reading on this site lately, unless you want to play into the "hating on Happeh" thing. So thanks!

    Hey, and if you want to take the time to write a bit about an experience or two that would be great. Like one of your matches in the ring over there, or how bad you got beat down the first couple days of training. You know, just a good story or two. I'm sure you've got some good ones!

    That is, if you feel like it.
    "Winners turn to losers, losers are forgotten..." - A Tribe Called Quest

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    • #47
      I would say that a martial artist should have balance in their training. Flexibility, strength/power, and speed/timing are very important. You don't have to lift weights to gain strength, there are plenty of methods out there for body weight exercises.

      However, I feel that if you stretch, do some sort of CV exercise, and lift weights you will keep from getting stiff and slow.

      When I watch a lot of guys lift, they do it very slowly and rest way too much. If you want to cut fat and keep lean and long, I recommend keeping your heart rate up. Most of the time I will run and then come back and lift, however I have at times taken a jump rope and skipped in between sets.

      In regards to slowing down with lifting, I think that has a lot to do with how you train with your techniques for shadow-kickboxing/boxing, on the bag, or in sparring. Fighting is not always about speed too, it has more to do with timing. I have come to believe that you will not be successful in a fight if you do not at least do some sort of uncooperative sparring practice.

      Well, thats all I got for now.

      Peace.
      "For some reason I'm in a good mood today. I haven't left the house yet, though. "

      "fa hui, you make buddhism sexy." -Zachsan

      "Friends don't let friends do Taekwondo." -Nancy Reagan

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by LeiYunFat
        In any combat sport, technique will triumph over power. Lifting on it's own can never make up for the fact that you can't throw a punch, no one has argued that. However, to say that lifting has no use what so ever...that's just ignorant. Thai boxers don't lift probably because they don't have the means and it's probably not the most traditional thing to do. Look at western boxers, mma'ers, and professional kickboxers. They ALL lift, but they also all work technique and stuff. It's really a synergy when it comes together and they promote eachother.
        I agree with part of what you're saying Lei, except I believe according to one IMA/MMA teacher named Tim Cartmell, "If you are 100% better technically and your opponent is 50% stronger, you will be hard pressed to win the fight."
        "For some reason I'm in a good mood today. I haven't left the house yet, though. "

        "fa hui, you make buddhism sexy." -Zachsan

        "Friends don't let friends do Taekwondo." -Nancy Reagan

        Comment


        • #49
          True, FH. However I felt like people were thinking in extremes, like if the stronger guy didn't know how to protect his face and the weaker guy was a total master.

          Yes, doc, you can lift too much...but chances are you will be able to stop where you want when you are getting to heavy for your weight class. Lifting and strength training is the same as anything else-- it takes hard work and time. When I promote lifting (for fighting), strength is typically the primary reason. Getting bigger and heavier is just a secondary benefit. Lifting to me equates to strength training because of the exercises I associate with lifting-- olympic lifts, plyometrics, and a vast majority of explosive movements. These exercises do NOT make you slower by any means. Obviously you know this, but from reading many of your responses I assume the disagreement is in trivial semantics.

          As for lifting making you stiff and slow...that's a misconception. If you train hard and smart, you will see an increase in performance. Like Fa Hui said, if you combine strength training with the rest of your flexibility/cv work, you will be better off. No one said lifting was the end-all solution for fighters. If that was true, fighting would be a lifting meet by now. I can't vouche for anyone else, but I have stopped flexibilty and cv training for a while and have only lifted/strength trained. I used to be a distance swimmer (better than average cv) and was pretty flexible. Because of how I lift, I have not lost much of my previous progress in either two.

          Flow, it sounds to me like you're getting overly defensive over nothing...I am here talking to you because I want to help you understand something, I don't want to MAKE you do anything you don't want to do. And all I am saying is you had 10 days of hard training, and several weeks of lifting. Do you really think this was enough to write off either of the two, ultimately limiting them? Cung Li, a san sou champion is pretty famous. I'd definately say that san sou and MT are similar in terms of endurance, speed, stamina, effort required to execute technique...and he's good. His training reflects the synergy I mentioned before. I'd say the same about kickboxing pros. I'd say the same about mma but it seems you have a somewhat limited view on that, so I'll leave it out.

          I guess all I really want to express is that whatever misconceptions you have about lifting are only limiting what you could do and how you could grow as a fighter or even as a person (it's all about hard work anyway, and where you chose to put it, hard work and dedication shows a lot of character). I'm not trying you FORCE you to understand or to do something, because what it really comes down to is yourself and whatever you chose to do.
          Becoming what I've dreamed about.

          Comment


          • #50
            misconceptions you have about lifting are only limiting what you could do and how you could grow as a fighter or even as a person (it's all about hard work anyway, and where you chose to put it, hard work and dedication shows a lot of character)
            Man, with all respect, who said I had misconceptions about lifting? Do I really sound stupid or did you even read my post? I have expressed my point of view and did not forget (let me check again...yes I didn't) to mention at the end that that's how I felt about it, it is my personal opinion. Now I don't feel I am limiting myself in anyway at the moment, neither did I in the past. I did describe lifting as a fun and exiting sport, I just said I didn't find it very useful. Let me clear a few things so you will maybe understand better what I do.

            Now, about hard work, I know what you mean, and I know I'm not the only one. But hey this is an interet forum, no more. I don't know you, you don't know me, at the end we are next to complete strangers, so it's difficult for you to actually evaluate the amount of dedication I have to put in my life from dusk to dawn every single day of my life, as you probably do too. A good fighter? See I am not obsessed with violence and fighting (probably less than many people, the really violent people, that you never see in the gyms). I do some amateur boxing/kickboxing and even some Kung fu because it's fun. Do you know any amateur boxer who does it for any other reason? Ok, hopes of becoming a pro one day for the youngest, hope of proving themselves and others that they can overcome difficulties...But at the end, if it wasn't fun, at all, why would I do it... You see we are the real crackheads, we fight but don't get paid.

            Anyway, I feel more of a fighter when I get up in the morning for another day of work, when me and my girlfriend survive another argument, than when I get to the gym and train, because I like getting there, because I enjoy staying healthy, learn new skills that do improve my quality of life and also my friends/family's quality of life because thanks to the training I have gone through over the years, I have become a more reliable, strong minded, trusworthy and confident person than I had ever been before. Hence I do not only benefit from my training but also all the people that frequent me.

            Now let me get this clear friend, I do not wish to be the next Cung Le, or the next King of the ring, because my goal is just different. I mean honestly I like to see them fight occasionally, but I don't wish to be them, at all. I also like to read, watch movies, listen to music, go out with friends, travel and eat nice authentic food, drink, and sometimes, when really desperate, think about the meaning of life (when Im drunk, let's say)...That's where I see the balance. Too many guys take themselves too seriously. what's the point anyway? If you have extraordinary pretentions, then you must do extraordinary things. I don't. Training Muay Thai in Thailand, everybody does this. Training Shaolin in China, anyone can do this. All you need is to be rich enough to have some extra money to waste. It's funny to see how most people I see here in Malaysia are so busy trying to fill up their fridges that they don't even conceive getting into a violent and so demanding sport just for pleasure...That's also why in Thailand for example Amateur boxing doesn't exist though. Noone fights for fun excepted some people tired of their little confortable safety in search of new sensations.

            I know all of it will sound off topic, but it's just to get you to know what my aspirations are. At 24, working professional, I enjoy doing some "safe" boxing when some enjoy playing football with friends. The only difference between me and them is that I don't like football. If I get ready for a fight, I will take it seriously, knowing that I am safe and not risking my life (what a silly thing to do). Now, appart from that, I'm just a normal guy whose name will no be remembered in the boxing world (lol) but maybe by the few beloved persons that I had the honnor of frequenting during my stay on earth.

            Talking about guys like Cung Le, I mean that's cool he's really good. Respect to him. It also is probably better for him to be as heavy as he can handle without compromizing his skill so he can get into a weight class that is more entertaining, watched, and that pays better. I am a naturally tall and skinny guy, getting over 70kg is just not right for me. Now I am experimenting a new way of lifting (see I'm not completely narrow minded), I lift small to medium weights for at least 20 reps, and I keep my heart pumping all the time (like Fh said in his post but I was already doing it before I read it. And it works great, it's a great complementary exercise.

            I was expressing my dissapointment about lifting heavy and low rep because that's what I did beofre leaving to Bangkok and it didn't serve me well. Period.

            Believe me or not, I'm glad I have the opportunity to discuss with some people I don't know from all over the world. And I'm thankful you took the time to explain things to me, a total stranger- on a subject that I don't know much about. Now, don't you think you're a bit too much into defending your camp? Maybe if you said a bit more about yourself and your aspirations, then It would help me and others to get to understand better why weight lifting is so important to you. As you don't seem to be involed in any kind of martial arts, you must have different motivations and experience?
            The East? The West?

            Men and Women, that's all...

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by flow
              Man, with all respect, who said I had misconceptions about lifting? Do I really sound stupid or did you even read my post? I have expressed my point of view and did not forget (let me check again...yes I didn't) to mention at the end that that's how I felt about it, it is my personal opinion. Now I don't feel I am limiting myself in anyway at the moment, neither did I in the past. I did describe lifting as a fun and exiting sport, I just said I didn't find it very useful. Let me clear a few things so you will maybe understand better what I do.
              I was referring to generalizing comments such as this one:

              But if you intend to be in a sport where stamina and mobility and speed are number one, then do not waste your time and energy lifting when you could be doing sprints and working the bag or your technique.
              Where perhaps in what you witnessed in the exact context may have some truth, I don't believe these comments do anyone justice. Some of what I precieved to be were misconceptions were also the stereotypes describing someone who lifts, which to me reflected a view still clouded by misconceptions.

              Now, about hard work, I know what you mean, and I know I'm not the only one. But hey this is an interet forum, no more. I don't know you, you don't know me, at the end we are next to complete strangers, so it's difficult for you to actually evaluate the amount of dedication I have to put in my life from dusk to dawn every single day of my life, as you probably do too. A good fighter? See I am not obsessed with violence and fighting (probably less than many people, the really violent people, that you never see in the gyms). I do some amateur boxing/kickboxing and even some Kung fu because it's fun. Do you know any amateur boxer who does it for any other reason? Ok, hopes of becoming a pro one day for the youngest, hope of proving themselves and others that they can overcome difficulties...But at the end, if it wasn't fun, at all, why would I do it... You see we are the real crackheads, we fight but don't get paid.
              Hahaha true, violence for fun...

              Let me describe my view: fighting for competition and sport is probably the hardest thing to compete in out there. Everyone has his strengths and weaknesses but there is nothing like going against someone with his own strengths and weaknesses who is trying to undo everything you do. If you have a good opponent, your strengths are his strengths and you are able to discover not only your weaknesses, but his as well. I also find that there is a LOT of character involved in fighting. If you didn't train and work hard before the fight, there are consequences. Fighting reveals alot about yourself that you may not have known or didn't want to find out. Fighting is the test of willpower and character. To me it's not about violence or how much pain you can inflict, it's about the culmination of everything you are. Ideally one would like this to be a sort of meditation in which you know yourself in order to destroy yourself. So why short change yourself? Why not give it your all, not just in the ring, but when you're training? I'm sure you feel the same way, which is why I so vehemently defend my position and insist that you're making a miscalculation.

              Now let me get this clear friend, I do not wish to be the next Cung Le, or the next King of the ring, because my goal is just different. I mean honestly I like to see them fight occasionally, but I don't wish to be them, at all. I also like to read, watch movies, listen to music, go out with friends, travel and eat nice authentic food, drink, and sometimes, when really desperate, think about the meaning of life (when Im drunk, let's say)...That's where I see the balance. Too many guys take themselves too seriously. what's the point anyway? If you have extraordinary pretentions, then you must do extraordinary things. I don't. Training Muay Thai in Thailand, everybody does this. Training Shaolin in China, anyone can do this. All you need is to be rich enough to have some extra money to waste. It's funny to see how most people I see here in Malaysia are so busy trying to fill up their fridges that they don't even conceive getting into a violent and so demanding sport just for pleasure...That's also why in Thailand for example Amateur boxing doesn't exist though. Noone fights for fun excepted some people tired of their little confortable safety in search of new sensations.
              I don't think that any of this is taking yourself seriously...I just think it's taking yourself seriously enough to want to aspire to be the best athlete or fighter you can be, within reason. The reason I brought up Cung Le was to highlight the fact that being big doesn't necessarily make you slow and that lifting doesn't make your technique worse. That's the reason I made most of my comparisons...not to say, "He's/They're doing it, why aren't you?"

              I know all of it will sound off topic, but it's just to get you to know what my aspirations are. At 24, working professional, I enjoy doing some "safe" boxing when some enjoy playing football with friends. The only difference between me and them is that I don't like football. If I get ready for a fight, I will take it seriously, knowing that I am safe and not risking my life (what a silly thing to do). Now, appart from that, I'm just a normal guy whose name will no be remembered in the boxing world (lol) but maybe by the few beloved persons that I had the honnor of frequenting during my stay on earth.
              That's the best that we can hope for, really. See? You really do have great pretentions...lol. Well since you asked about me, I HAVE done ma. Currently I'm a professional college student and a part time worker. The problem is I take precidence of my future as a scholar over my future as the greatest fighter in the world. This being the case, I have not taken classes at the only legit martial arts school in my devoid location. I have only recently found this school, but I have done chinese gong fu taught to me by my uncle (the base of the MA I practice today). I've also dabbled in Shaolin long enough to pick up the first basic form (visiting Doc's school in Vegas). Since I have no instruction and have not had any for several years, I began to focus on my weaknesses, namely, strength. Lifting has only brought me further down the path of knowing my self, and I can say without a doubt that it would help you too. I'm not talking about casually going into the gym to do some curls and look at yourself in the mirror, I'm talking about sessions so intense or weight so challenging that you have to find and fight your own weakness to complete it.


              Now I am experimenting a new way of lifting (see I'm not completely narrow minded), I lift small to medium weights for at least 20 reps, and I keep my heart pumping all the time (like Fh said in his post but I was already doing it before I read it. And it works great, it's a great complementary exercise.
              Now if you want to get down to brass tacks here, high rep low weight exercises typically train Slow Twictch Type I fibers. These will make you better at lifting only that weight. While endurance is a must for fighters, there are other ways to go about it, most of which you're probably already doing (extended bag work for example). High weight low reps trains fast twitch type II fibers (along with making your neural connections better at contracting muscle). These will make you faster and more powerful.

              I was expressing my dissapointment about lifting heavy and low rep because that's what I did beofre leaving to Bangkok and it didn't serve me well. Period.
              I don't have the same certainty. The controls in this "experiment" became variables, like the weather, lack of food/water for extended periods of training time, level of conditioning prior to both lifting and MT training, etc. I just don't think it's that definite, but if that's the way you feel (Yes I read your previous posts despite appearances, lol) then I guess that's the way it's going to be.

              Believe me or not, I'm glad I have the opportunity to discuss with some people I don't know from all over the world. And I'm thankful you took the time to explain things to me, a total stranger- on a subject that I don't know much about. Now, don't you think you're a bit too much into defending your camp? Maybe if you said a bit more about yourself and your aspirations, then It would help me and others to get to understand better why weight lifting is so important to you. As you don't seem to be involed in any kind of martial arts, you must have different motivations and experience?
              Well I'm happy to do it, as I said before. That's what all this is really about, sharing knowledge, information, and exacerbations...lol
              Becoming what I've dreamed about.

              Comment


              • #52
                Flow,

                Glad to hear it. Never hurt anyone to be a little stronger, just keep the heart rate up.
                "For some reason I'm in a good mood today. I haven't left the house yet, though. "

                "fa hui, you make buddhism sexy." -Zachsan

                "Friends don't let friends do Taekwondo." -Nancy Reagan

                Comment


                • #53
                  Hi,

                  I have noticed that training with low to medium weights (still hard to lift but light enough for me to to it many times) for man reps (increasing the weight as much as possible every time and lifting explosively) seemed to really do the job well. I have a better muscle definition and obviously a better resistance, I also work my Cardio because I don't rest much after a set.

                  Now, I remember that in my first boxing gym, weights were only used for making weight before a fight. If you were at the good weight, you were exempted from even approaching them. Wait, we're talking amateur, where the emphasis in indeed on the technique and stamina, pros definitly need more strenght, but they don't all lift either.

                  You say you've done some CMA in the past, that you don't train anymore...I mean this is a different context, as it probably has been a long time since you have had the occasion to test your new strenght in a sparring or MA training session. Furthermore, you don't box so you maybe haven't experienced this kind of training on a long term basis. You probably spend most of your time working on your strenght, if i'm not wrong. You would probably find less time for that if you lived in a less remote place with some good Ma clubs, or maybe even less need for that if you found satisfaction in a good martial training environment.

                  I see the potential you're talking about, I know liftin can be very tough if you train seriously. Now it's all about what you want from it.

                  Although I keep on lifting now because I can afford it here, when i'll be back in UK I'll have to stop, couldn't afford paying their monthly suscriptions and anyway couldn't find the time to to both lifting and MA training.

                  Now, if one day you start working full time and start getting financial pressures, and get really involved in a MA school that you like, you might have less time and put less dedication into lifting and more into your MA training? I'm supposing. We all have a different balance, personally I lack technique more than I lack strenght.

                  Now it's always good to be a little stronger. I do lots of bodyweights and I guarantee it gives me a lot of power. Bodyweight is still weight isn't it? And it's free and less stressful for the body. In my Wing Chun club we used to do challenges like counting how many press up one could do in a minute, or squatts...Some of the "strongest" guys could not do more than 50 when some not so strong could do over 65 or more. This kind of exercise is very tough and challenging, and also physically rewarding, but all you need is yourself. I like this independance, this hussle free but efficient kind of training.

                  Please let me know if you start training in any MA in the future, and how did this influence your weight training schedule.
                  The East? The West?

                  Men and Women, that's all...

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    I put more precedence on the MA training myself. My weight workout is only 20min long, and I like it like that. They are 6 exercises that cover most of the body area:

                    Clean and Press
                    Squats (I have done lunges in this place too)
                    pullovers
                    chest presses
                    good mornings
                    bicep curls

                    These seem to work for me the best.

                    One thing I would like to point is that strength with your flexibility is very important. Martial artists need to make sure that their strength is maintained in their range of motion (R.O.M.) because if they need to hit from an unsual place, you can do so with sacrificing any power you might have. Another trick that goes along with that is to attack at spots where your power is far greater than his at that moment in time.
                    "For some reason I'm in a good mood today. I haven't left the house yet, though. "

                    "fa hui, you make buddhism sexy." -Zachsan

                    "Friends don't let friends do Taekwondo." -Nancy Reagan

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      That is an excellent choice of excercises, FH. 20 min with all those must make the intensity pretty high, which is where it should be. I just recently got into good mornings whereas for hip extension I was doing straight legged/Romanian deadlifts...I find that the weight placement for GM's allows for a much better hip extension and a better hamstring stimulation.

                      I agree, ROM is important too, which is why I like full/olympic squats over parrallel.

                      Flow, I think I will start training MA again very soon. Maybe in Aug-Sept, and I will definately let you know. Actually if you want to follow my progress, I have a training log here:

                      Becoming what I've dreamed about.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Well I can't take full credit for the exercises, they were Bruce Lee's invention. The only difference is that I do it with dumbbells where he had used barbells. I like dumbbells because it takes more of the smaller muscle groups to work harder as well as the main muscle you are trying to work. Both would be fine regardless.
                        "For some reason I'm in a good mood today. I haven't left the house yet, though. "

                        "fa hui, you make buddhism sexy." -Zachsan

                        "Friends don't let friends do Taekwondo." -Nancy Reagan

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Bodyweight exercises that use your body weight as resistance, rather than weights or machines. They can be done anywhere and are great for building strength and endurance.

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