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  • #31
    Originally posted by liutangsanzang View Post
    Well LFJ as you wish to choose between mudita and karuna. Anyway i think it is very important to restrain one's feelings when there is so much suffering. Would you laugh while your neighbor is dying without medicine? The same goes with dancing, i think it is a good rule for monks and people on retreat not to dance. Would you dance while your friend is sent to jail for his political ideas or while he has been shot on a terrorist attack in the streets of Bagdad or Gaza?
    I think some austerity is worthwile if you have compassion for the suffering of every sentient being.
    not choosing between mudita and karuna, just distinguishing the two.

    and while i agree with fahui, samsara is not a reason to be depressed, i noticed you said for monastics and those who attend a retreat.

    in that case i agree. there are practices more conducive to the goal of the monastic life or a retreat.

    but still, dancing or laughing does not mean you are taking joy in the suffering of the world.

    in the same way, being a stick in the mud does not mean you are lessening the suffering of the world!

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    • #32
      Dear friends, ok to be depressed might not be a solution. Though if you read Daodejing 20:
      "All men, indeed, are wreathed in smiles,
      As though feasting after the Great Sacrifice,
      As though going up to the Spring Carnival.
      I alone am inert, like a child that has not yet given sign;
      Like an infant that has not yet smiled.
      I droop and drift, as though i belonged nowhere.
      All men have enough and to spare;
      I alone seem to have lost everything. ...
      They look lively and self assured;
      I alone, depressed."

      Laozi says he belongs nowhere. I think it is important not to discriminate far from near. Why are we more concerned with our suffering and that of our close circle? That s another sense of the ego.
      Selfless service as Gandhi pointed out must be constant: it might be a lack of service to go dancing or watch the new comedy on TV. Maybe we have better to do?

      I guess there must be a middle way between depression and laughing superficially. Like being serious at the suffering of the world. Personally i would have a hard time laughing with an israelian army man. I dont know, that is just a feeling!

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      • #33
        Originally posted by liutangsanzang View Post
        Personally i would have a hard time laughing with an israelian army man. I dont know, that is just a feeling!
        I've known a quite a few "israelian army" men.

        They're fun guys. They're hatred of the Palestinians (and maybe, Arabs in general), is fairly obvious.

        But that doesn't make them "not fun" to be around.
        Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

        "You're just a jaded cynical mother****er...." Jeffpeg

        (more comments in my User Profile)
        russbo.com


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        • #34
          "All men, indeed, are wreathed in smiles,
          As though feasting after the Great Sacrifice,
          As though going up to the Spring Carnival.
          I alone am inert, like a child that has not yet given sign;
          Like an infant that has not yet smiled.
          I droop and drift, as though i belonged nowhere.
          All men have enough and to spare;
          I alone seem to have lost everything. ...
          They look lively and self assured;
          I alone, depressed."
          that is a wrong translation. if you pull up a chinese version, those who can read it will see that easily. this verse actually mentions nothing of depression or being depressed.

          proper translation, daodejing, 20:

          How much difference is there between yes and no?
          How much difference is there between good and evil?
          Is what people fear really to be feared?
          How very remote the actual occurrence!

          The people of the world make merry
          as though at a holiday feast or a spring carnival.
          I alone am inactive and desireless,
          like a new-born baby who cannot yet smile,
          unattached, as though homeless.

          The people of the world possess more than enough.
          I alone seem to have lost all.
          I must be a fool, so indiscriminate and nebulous.

          Most people seem knowledgeable and bright.
          I alone am simple and dull.

          Most people see differences and are sharp.
          I alone make no distinctions,
          seeming aimless, drifting as the sea,
          like the wind blowing about, seemingly without destination.

          People of the world all have a purpose.
          I alone seem impractical and out of place.
          I am different from others,
          and value drawing sustenance from the Mother.

          two things:

          in the translation posted above it is clear that laozi was not speaking of being depressed. the metephors/ parallels may be slightly "dark"...but viewing it this way simple limits and divides the actual topic.

          secondly, Laozi also does not say "he belongs nowhere." he says, "drifts about without a destination."

          I guess there must be a middle way between depression and laughing superficially.
          mmmmmm........

          and so, i don't think it really makes any sense to use the daodejing as a platform to back up our beliefs. because, it would seem, well, every argument would have to involve some sort of counter conclusion...due to the very nature of the daodejing's dialectical underpinings.

          ZhongwenMovies.com

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          • #35
            Originally posted by onesp1ng View Post
            that is a wrong translation. if you pull up a chinese version, those who can read it will see that easily. this verse actually mentions nothing of depression or being depressed.

            proper translation, daodejing, 20:



            two things:

            in the translation posted above it is clear that laozi was not speaking of being depressed. the metephors/ parallels may be slightly "dark"...but viewing it this way simple limits and divides the actual topic.

            secondly, Laozi also does not say "he belongs nowhere." he says, "drifts about without a destination."



            mmmmmm........

            and so, i don't think it really makes any sense to use the daodejing as a platform to back up our beliefs. because, it would seem, well, every argument would have to involve some sort of counter conclusion...due to the very nature of the daodejing's dialectical underpinings.


            seemingly. according to that translation, he says "seemingly aimless", and "seemingly without direction" "as though homeless" .. like the monk living outside of the temple, the "mad" "wild" "crazy" "wandering" "shrine" monks.
            not to dwell on semantics, but you didn't exactly show that you were paraphrasing there neither.

            "drawing sustenance from the mother", huh. Profound.

            that looks like refuge, LfJ. Isn't it funny though that the mother can't offer the shelter directly unless she sends forth her tainted by the evilness of seperation's spawn and only therrreby can provide branches for the shelter of those that aren't ownable directly and thereby shelters all of it? ..

            obvious observation, but, just so we're all sure we're following that far , for those who like to make up their own stories, you know.

            Blooming tianshi lotus
            Last edited by blooming tianshi lotus; 05-03-2008, 12:19 PM.

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            • #36
              Btw, if your argument, G, about it not making sense to use the TaoTeching to support an argument is because the only way an arguement can exist is for it's yin yang counterpart to, then at least when the other side to "your" argument comes up, you kowww yours is coming back up directly following that.


              see, that's winning.

              Blooming tianshi lotus.

              Comment


              • #37
                Thanks for the new translation, it is pretty different, i ll meditate on this.

                The few israeli army men i met, didn t seem so fun to me. Would you also laugh with Bin Laden or some Talibans, Doc? Or is it just the israelian side who is funny?Or with Hitler? I just cannot associate with violent people, that s personal: laughing with them makes me feel like them, and for me it is the beginning of fascism. Though you might laugh and get distanced, Doc.

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                • #38
                  actually i was translating when i wrote that second note. i have several versions here. but, in a sense, you are right. i should have used "as if," "like," or another word to denote a simile because that's part of the text.

                  it's tricky. some versions don't even contain that verse. originally, remember, there was also no punctuation. of course there is punctuation in the versions we see today, but an understanding of classical chinese basically allows you to recognize the restrictions of translating the modern versions like that. you just got to go with your gut. thus, everyone's translation is slightly different.

                  here's one version:

                  其若海飂兮若無止

                  其【qí】 his (her; its; their); he (she, it, they); that; such.
                  若【ruò】 like; seem; as if; <formal> <conj.> if; <formal> you.
                  海【hǎi】 sea or big lake; a great number of people or things coming together;
                  extra large; of great capacity; (Hai3) a surname.
                  飂 [liao2] (not found in the dictionary).
                  (liao, as found in other dictionaries, refers to the sound of wind.....as
                  if whirling.)
                  兮【xī】 (part.). this is just a phonetic sound which denotes wonder, kind
                  of like whao or wow or something.
                  若【ruò】 like; seem; as if; <formal> <conj.> if; <formal> you.
                  無【wú】 nothing; nil; not have; there is not; without; not; regardless
                  of; no matter whether, what, etc..
                  止【zhǐ】 stop; to; till; only.

                  only you, yourself, can really figure out what it says. that's the beauty of the text, and that's also why it's silly to use in debate. yet, the point was that he didn't say, "he belongs nowhere."

                  at least not in the versions i'm viewing. lol....
                  ZhongwenMovies.com

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by liutangsanzang View Post
                    Thanks for the new translation, it is pretty different, i ll meditate on this.

                    The few israeli army men i met, didn t seem so fun to me. Would you also laugh with Bin Laden or some Talibans, Doc? Or is it just the israelian side who is funny?Or with Hitler? I just cannot associate with violent people, that s personal: laughing with them makes me feel like them, and for me it is the beginning of fascism. Though you might laugh and get distanced, Doc.
                    I think you take things too personally.
                    "For some reason I'm in a good mood today. I haven't left the house yet, though. "

                    "fa hui, you make buddhism sexy." -Zachsan

                    "Friends don't let friends do Taekwondo." -Nancy Reagan

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                    • #40
                      wow. I think that very "little" similie you now perceive should be there, changes the entiire meaning of the script. I dont think that "as if" or "like" equates as "seemingly" though. they are very very different concepts. One is more like from the speaker/ writer / author's perspective and the other , "as if " and "like" is more about the observer or reader's perspective creating the distance, implying that the reader/ observer is missing something of the reality of the situation which makes them perceive it to be like a state that it's not. as opposed to with "seemingly" where it is more a case the illusion being obviously held by reader but where they are perhaps aware of that, like to say that it's albeit greatly consistent with that it should be followed by... "but alas, .." , whereas with "as if" or "like" it's very less dramatic to have it do that, but, it looses characteristic intonation of the importance of the focus on the existance of the illusion.


                      Totally different translation. but each of an individual presentation.

                      I study clinical science though and it's always been my standard sounding board to provide proof to, particularly with certain accusations flying around, so, I guess I dont do ambiguous like that and dont really see the place for it my first most native logic. I just cant afford it.. and to be honest, I dont think level is that ambigous of wugong neither.
                      I can draw maps and tables and charts in all sorts of different language and format. I'm a language and communications expert maybe a little differently to yourself. Now that I think back, that iis when you extended the invitation to myself to meet you in china and does coincide with your beef since then.

                      maybe that's why you've been particularly trying to go for that character lately, because you feel threatened about a translation project sanction?


                      I'm doing it anyway. and I hope they like it and 'll approve and accept any profits it does.


                      you're a tricky one.

                      but, yes. I see now.

                      Blooming tianshi lotus.
                      Last edited by blooming tianshi lotus; 05-03-2008, 03:44 PM.

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by liutangsanzang View Post
                        Thanks for the new translation, it is pretty different, i ll meditate on this.

                        The few israeli army men i met, didn t seem so fun to me. Would you also laugh with Bin Laden or some Talibans, Doc? Or is it just the israelian side who is funny?Or with Hitler? I just cannot associate with violent people, that s personal: laughing with them makes me feel like them, and for me it is the beginning of fascism. Though you might laugh and get distanced, Doc.

                        I know of a monk who does last rights or sits in to witness murderers die, or get killed by the government rather, as wintess for the murderer. it's kind of the same thing, isn't it.

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by blooming tianshi lotus View Post
                          I know of a monk who does last rights or sits in to witness murderers die, or get killed by the government rather, as wintess for the murderer. it's kind of the same thing, isn't it.
                          No, actually I would say it isn't at all.
                          "For some reason I'm in a good mood today. I haven't left the house yet, though. "

                          "fa hui, you make buddhism sexy." -Zachsan

                          "Friends don't let friends do Taekwondo." -Nancy Reagan

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Well, Liu, I've been around some very violent people in my life.

                            It really has nothing to do with how violent they are. It has more to do with why they are violent. Sometimes violence is necessary, for protection, to maintain a way or standard of life, to keep one's family safe.

                            The reason behind violence is more important than the act itself. The Israeli's do what they do, because they are protecting themselves. They have an interesting history; I've read quite a few books on them (and their neighbors). I understand the reasons for the violence, from both sides.

                            Personally, I tend to agree with the Israeli's. I'll laugh with them any day.
                            Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

                            "You're just a jaded cynical mother****er...." Jeffpeg

                            (more comments in my User Profile)
                            russbo.com


                            Comment


                            • #44
                              I dont understand how killing civilians and palestinians children helps to protect oneself. It is quite the contrary has it raises the potential violence of the other side. But maybe it serves the interest of some right wings politicians who have access to power this way, by creating fear inside the israelian state.
                              Killing civilians and children is terrorism. Gandhi would have certainly not accepted it.

                              You say that level of violence is not as important as the reasons why. But Gandhi has proven that such a theory is wrong: what is generally thought has a reason for violence can be achieved by non violence. You can have independance following a non violent path. That s what the palestinians terrorists should understand.

                              So really Doc, you agree with the Isrealian army killing children?

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                              • #45
                                A few ch'an questions to doc:

                                1 If the israelian army would kill your child would you laugh with them?

                                2 In the present situation would you take turns laughing with israelian army zen with Bin Laden or some Hamas guys?

                                I think i should not discriminate between me and other when it comes to suffering. A palestinian children is my children and i would sue who kills him. In buddhism it is to apply the view on the emptiness of independant self.

                                It makes me think of a chinese story. I was with my chinese family and a mouse had been caught on a trap. The mouse was screaming and i thought it was with pain and fear, but all around me chinese people were laughing. I know chinese people would laugh at embarassing situations, but i thought on this one it was cruelty, though i still cannot understand it. It made me think of the sad recent past of China with the Mao's campaign of reeducation and the cultural revolution. People laughing at the suffering of others. We in the west are not so different for instance when Nato kills talibans and civilians in Afghanistan nobody really feel sad or mourn for them, though we are killing people and innocent people. I would also not laugh with the talibans.

                                This laughing question has occupied me for a while and i believe we are just not receptive to the suffering of living beings and we cover that with laugh. Maybe also because we dont want to suffer.

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