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  • full-immersion shaolin and wing chun instruction

    I am determined to follow my dream of training in kung fu intensely for at least 6 to 8 hrs./day every day for a year. I can go anywhere in the world and can spend approximately $5000 dollars (not including my air fare), but it must cover training, housing, and food. I know that N. and S. Preying Mantis, Dragon, and Wing Chun are all "high-systems" meaning extreme efficiency of movement, conservation of energy, and extensive use of chi. I also understand Pak Mei (White Eyebrow) to be a high-system, although not traditionally taught at the Shaolin Temple. I wish to learn mainly Wing Chun as it is extremely effective and purportedly has easy translation into real situations where one has no time to think but only react. But I would also like to learn some of the traditional complete systems of Shaolin kung-fu. I have read lots of the archive stuff about this school and that, and all the argumentation over who's sifu is best and unfortunately am still at a loss as to which direction to go. China? Europe? I want to learn from a master of the highest fighting skill, ability, and knowledge that can teach Wing Chun and at least one of the other 4 high-systems mentioned above. I have no interest whatsoever in wushu. I am not interested in "performance or sport-type sparring, or "shaolin kickboxing" (I think I heard someone refer to San Shou as shaolin kickboxing, but don't know anything about it. Anyway, if it's similar to Muey Thai or kickboxing, I'm not interested). I am only interested in real, combat tested, traditional kung fu training, and traditional kung fu sparring intended for use in real life fights should one be so unlucky as to be forced into having to defend oneself or others. This really is my dream, and I would greatly appreciate your advice Doc, because you seem the most knowledgable and impartial information source on the subject. Thank you and best wishes. -Michael

  • #2
    gong fu

    well tooooo damn bad your gettin my oppinion!!

    hahahahahahahhahahahahahahhaha

    actually considering your questions you should get daves advice(not lipster dave) hes been doing wing chun for like 3 years now i think..says his lineage is under Yip Man but who knows! hehehe just jk..anyway

    you should probably state your goals(they are pretty clear but still a little foggy to me) in your MA training..like do you want to be some kind of ultimate fighter..or do you just want a genuine teacher, who generally knows Kung Fu works and who can make you a generally good fighter..or something along those lines?

    because theres somethings you should understand(or try to understand) before you make any decisions about your MA career..for one thing there is no such thing as "the ultimate style" or 1 style being superior to another..in all seriousness wing chung..hung ga..praying mantis..choy lay futt..some of the best known kung fu styles all of em are not superior to say..muy thai or sanshou or whatever..they cant be because a fighters skill depends on the fighter and as for martial artists..well you could say a kung fu style is better then muy thai because of the fact that you generally learn a hellluva alot more while training in kung fu then in muy thai etc and since most kung fu styles arent 1 dimensional yea you could say they are better martial arts..but not better styles or systems of fighting..you get what im saying?

    also your goals are a little...screwy so to speak, for one thing you got 5k to train 6-8 hours daily for a year(why only 1 year?) in a kung fu style that you want some high lvl crazy grandmaster to teach you..now maybe you dont know this but 5k isnt that much and im sorry to say theres no way in hell thats gonna last you a year anywhere, considering what you want to do anyway, and the fact that you want to train 6-8 hours a day without having some kind of income how are you going to support yourself? and why do you feel you need 6-8 hours a day of training..because thats alot and usually in martial arts quality is much more improtant then quantity..even though training for extensive periods of time is good..its not a sure fire way for you to become ..a grandmaster in a year..or whatever it is your goin for..

    either way i think you should evaulate your plan a lil bit or somethin..or make it more clear for doc and dave etc so they can help you better..cause i know you could probably take the doc tour and train with some shaolin monks with 5k..but for a year...i dun think so =(
    "did you ask me to consider dick with you??" blooming tianshi lotus

    Comment


    • #3
      Gotta agree with a couple of points here. Firstly, planning to jump into 6-8 hours a day of gong fu - unless you have quite a bit of previous experience or are exceptionally fit - is pretty unrealistic. I have the enthusiasm to train six-eight hours a day, but plain and simple, my body can't take it (not considering all the practical problems of full time training - money, time, future prospects.) That's why gong fu is a gradual and lengthy process. You can't train in techniques all day if your body isn't sufficiently strong. Which brings me to my second point. It seems like you're looking to achieve a fairly high level of MA, yet you only specify a single year. Not much will be achieved in a single year, least of all a high level. As my Shifu says, it doesn't matter what you train in for a year; a master and a student could be learning the same 'style' gong fu - it's not gong fu. Gong fu is hard work; the result of many years toil.

      The fact that there are so many different opinions on which style and who is better should tell you that there is no single answer; it all depends on your personal goals. If you read the old forum, the one thing it will prove is that there is no single 'real, combat tested, traditional kung fu training' that any several people will agree on. Lastly, you seem to be mainly interested (from what I gather, correct me if I'm wrong) in combat efficiency for self defence. Well, if that's your only purpose; gong fu's pretty obsolete in that area now - has been for quite a while - your best bet is to buy a gun. No jokes.

      Good luck

      Peace

      Comment


      • #4
        well..

        well actually saying that gong fu for self defense is obsolete is just crazy...

        but, what lipster is trying to say(i hope..) is that the gun is what i like to call "the great equalizer" because you could train literally your entire life, and if someone has a gun and he has it pointed towards you..and he has the will to kill you, all your training up to that point means jack shit

        but..thats not to say that a gong fu practitioner is helpless in those situations..im not saying they are gods or whatever im just saying..practicing gongfu for a long long time will increase your chances of survival vs that of a normal person by like 110%..

        so anyway..dont give up..fill in some of the details that are missing from your post and maybe doc and the others can help you better!

        ~~peace~~
        "did you ask me to consider dick with you??" blooming tianshi lotus

        Comment


        • #5
          I would like to first thank Maistro and Lipster for their advice/questions. Secondly, since none of you guys know me yet, I will state my objectives and motivations more clearly.

          I am a lover, not a fighter. I do not wish to become another skilled yet boastful "I'm a badass; I can take anybody" chump. I do not wish to ever fight, although I have been unfortunate enough to have been forced to defend myself. I simply wish to be able to successfully defend myself regardless of the number or skill of my attackers. I merely wish to develop a superior fighting ability. So I guess you could say I wish to become an "ultimate fighter" who only fights when there is no other option. In order to do so, I believe that one must first have a knowledgable and skillfull master with noble character to learn from. Too many teachers advocate the use of skill to "win" or emerge "victorious" or to show that you are the "best." When you fight, nobody wins; fighting should be avoided at all costs, and showing off is childish. -just my humble opinion


          Maistro, I agree with you that there is no "ultimate style," but there is a difference between the completeness, practicality, and effectiveness of certain styles; hence high systems and low systems of kung fu; or the difference between complete systems such as the ones I mentioned and styles that are not complete systems (Karate, Muey Thai, Aikido, etc. They can all be very effective styles, but not as effective as the complete systems which, in the martial arts world are only found in kung fu, although not all kung fu styles are complete systems) Some chess strategies used by identical computers against the champion chess player Kasparov are superior to other strategies used by the same computers, and some battlefield strategies taught at Westpoint are superior to other strategies taught at the same place. You are correct to say that "a fighter's skill depends on the fighter," but when you have two identical fighters of identical dimensions, skill, stamina, endurance, everything, but they are using different styles or systems, the more effective and comprehensive system will win because all other variables are the same. I want to train in the most effective and practical complete systems so that even if I am facing an opponent who is a superior athlete, I can at least have the advantage that a more structurally and philosophically sound system affords -even if it is almost too small of an advantage for the average martial artist to notice. As far as money goes, I just sort of settled on $5000 because before I recently came to this awesome forum with its wealth of info, I was planning to spend a year at the Northern China Shaolin Martial Arts Academy, and their 1-year tuition is $4500. I wasn't aware that my training objective would actually be much more expensive, thank you for your insight. The reason I want to train 6 to 8 hrs./day for a year is this: I am about to graduate college, I can take a 1 year sabatical, and I have a few thousand dollars, plus my parents are willing to help me out. This will probably be the only time in my life I can just pick up and go somewhere to completely devote myself to learning something like this for an entire year. Also, if I'm going to do it, I'm going to do it to the absolute fullest (my goal being to get trained as similarly as possible to the all-day training I would have experienced had I gone to learn at the Shaolin Temple 100 years ago. -e.g. rigorous, full-immersion training) After all, the Wing Chun style is named after the girl it was first taught to, and she only trained for 1 year under Ng Mui before beating her warlord suitor -which was the whole reason for her training. Bruce Lee only studied Wing Chun for 1 or 2 years under Yip Man and for another couple of years outside the guan under Yip Man's most senior student. So as long as the teacher is excellent and I train my ass off every day, I am convinced I can make incredible strides in one year. I do not wish to stop my training after 1 year either, I just can't do it 6 to 8 hrs. a day after my 1 year sabatical. Thank you for your questions Maistro, they have helped me refine my goal.

          Lipster, I am exceptionally fit and have a few years of training in: -please don't laugh. . . tae kwon do. (I had to learn it to attend my dojo which was officially tae kwon do, but learned primarily odds and ends from various arts under my 5th degree instructor. And I do plan on a gradual and lengthy process of learning kung fu for the rest of my life, I just want to jump start it with a year of total immersion in kung fu training. You surmised correctly that my main interest is combat efficiency for self defense. But as to your advice regarding a gun for self defense. . . -lol, I own several. After all, I do live in the "good ole South," and am very much pro-gun ownership. I just hate the idea of having to or choosing to rely on a gun to defend oneself. The psychology of gun ownership for self-protection is this: studies show that people who carry a gun for self-protection develop a psychological dependance on the presence of the gun. They become dependant on the sense of control and security it provides and consequently feel vulnerable, insecure, and basically helpless without it once they have carried it for only a couple of weeks. A common response among surveyed people is "I just feel naked without it now." Thank you for your response and for wishing me good luck, Lipster.

          I apologize for my long-windedness and my analytical talk. -After all, I am majoring in Psychology I look forward to more discussions with you guys in the future! Take care. -Michael

          Comment


          • #6
            tajijuan...

            I suggest you lookin more deeply into taijijuan

            I myself have been getting more and more interested in it lately..it just sort of suits my personality.. and since my goals are more in line with the philosophy of the art i think it might be for you aswell..you dont want to fight but you want to be a powerful fighter..well the more you read about taijijuan the more you learn that it is definately not(when practiced correctly) "flowery fists and embroidery kicks"..i mean taijijuan stylists are probably some of the most powerful kung fu practitioners out there because they focus on force application in their strikes..alot of kung fu schools dont do this they use like iron palm and stuff..which is good and all but i tend to favor internal energy cultivation/application over the more external means like body hardening techniques and all that

            im not saying taijijuan isnt an external martial art..if its one thing ive learned about taijijuan it is definately not solely internal, it is both internal and external..

            thats how i feel anyway i like taijijuan for its power, health/spiritual aspects and its general effectiveness as a martial art...

            its also been around for like 1500 + years or something and so many other schools have been influenced by it, its just fantastic IMO BUT IM RANTING NOW.............

            anyway..like i said before if you favor wing chun(and you obviously do) talk to dave he trains with an org that has schools all over the world(i think) and they implement wild goose chi kung into their training regime..as well as teaching Chen style taijijuan(which is known espcially for its combat effectiveness)

            so that might be a good way for you to go with that org..they seem to have all youd ever want but i could be wrong..just my suggestion anyway and i hope no one get aggrovated over reading alll that taijijuan ranting! ahhh

            peace and chicken grease
            "did you ask me to consider dick with you??" blooming tianshi lotus

            Comment


            • #7
              Wow! I had no idea Taijijuan was a powerful, combat effective art that can be fast and devastating. I thought it was only slow, graceful stuff for really elderly monks and western geriatrics trying to live a few years longer. You hit the nail on the head when you said I don't want to fight, but I want to be a powerful fighter. And you say Dave traines with an international? group that teaches not only Wing Chun, but Chi Kung and Taijijuan as well?!! I must find out more about this. Thank you so much. -Michael

              Comment


              • #8
                thats right..

                Yup Yup Yup

                all props to ole Maestro (cheer) yay yay (cheer)

                heheheheheh

                yes taijijuan is one of the most powerful styles of kung fu, if you read about it theres lots of interesting stories..my favorite and probably alot of others is the famous story of Yang cheng fu otherwise known as Yang the invincible, supposedly he only used 1 technique to defeat most if not all his foes, grasping sparrows tail..one of the most basic taijijuan techniques that he was said to have practiced over and over untill his death

                read up about the stuff, the slow movements you mentioned are similar to chi kung movements because they are used to generate chi, but the taijijuan forms not only are very very good for generating force, they are also effective for combat

                mostly in taijijuan the attacks are circular and powerful, even a single strike if well placed and done by someone of high skill in the art can easily cripple or kill an opponent..ive read of such stories before, and the discovery channel did a piece on kung fu once and they mentioned a Yang style taijijuan master who crippled an attacker in a restaurant..

                so anyway i feel like im ranting again(doh!!) so hope you find what your looking for =)
                "did you ask me to consider dick with you??" blooming tianshi lotus

                Comment


                • #9
                  My point about the gun was that since the advent of the firearm, training alot purely for self defense is pretty nonsensical. Before the gun, it was conceivable for a highly trained martial artist to deal with most situations, even things such as arrows. There is no training in the world which will repel bullets, except perhaps for WKK's. His training regimen will also protect you from flamethrowers and nuclear fallouts as well as most known diseases. But for us mere mortals, it's not gonna happen. Nowadays, chances are most people who commit a crime (mugging, robbery) will probably carry a gun, so in light of that, training purely for self defense isn’t worth it. If you train for self defense/health/spiritual cultivation - a combination of reasons etc. then that's perfectly understandable. The difference is that before the advent of the gun, it was possible to defend oneself from most of the weapons people carried - now it isn't. That's why training for purely self defense is pretty obsolete.

                  Michael, yes, I agree with you that some styles are superior to some others, but it is largely dependant on the fighter and the quality of his training. It's a more important factor than the style - spend your time rather on looking for a good Shifu who will make you train hard rather then a superior style.

                  I see what you mean about a one year sabbatical - you will still train after that - this makes more sense then just training for a year. I hope you do well.

                  I'm a bit of a gun freak myself, and also very pro-gun. Yep, I can relate to what you've said about feeling vulnerable without one, but that shouldn't stop you from carrying one when you can. Combined with MA training should make you pretty confident.

                  Although my main interest is Gong Fu I have become extremely fascinated in Taichi. Such a beautiful and graceful art performance and such a devastating MA. I've recently been finding out a few of the applications which surprise the hell out of me. There're like 20 or so applications to each of the moves in my form - and they look so harmless. Alot of it's based on causing internal damage. Funky stuff. Maybe you should look into learning it from a decent master - the thing is, you probably won't learn much application in a single year, since you'll be concentrating on building your internal force and correcting form. But definitely well worth it if you're learning it for combat (not just health). It's does take time to master. Gotta be careful who you learn it from, though.

                  Peace

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    lots of things to consider dude! (part 1)

                    I know that N. and S. Preying Mantis, Dragon, and Wing Chun are all "high-systems" meaning extreme efficiency of movement, conservation of energy, and extensive use of chi. I also understand Pak Mei (White Eyebrow) to be a high-system, although not traditionally taught at the Shaolin Temple.
                    ummm... i dont think u would find ANY northern mantis, dragon (southern?), wing chun, southern mantis OR pak mei in ANY of the shaolin temples. None of those skills are "shaolin" as in the sense that they are in the temple. Shaolin does have some mantis forms and dragon, but they are different to those skills found in 8-step mantis, 7-star mantis etc.

                    As far as Southern Mantis, Pak Mei and Dragon... they are grouped in to "Hakka" (Kejia) people arts, and are not in shaolin either. They are from southern china. The body movement and structure is VERY different to shaolin such as what is in the temple and other shaolin derived skills like hung gar and choy li fut. it shares some similarity with wing chun and xing yi quan, but they are unique in their own right. In fact, pak mei and southern dragon are often taught together, whereas southern mantis is on its own. if you are in the USA there are good schools for these skills. where abouts are you?

                    I wish to learn mainly Wing Chun as it is extremely effective and purportedly has easy translation into real situations where one has no time to think but only react.
                    wing chun is about developing the body naturally and developing good "listening" skill, good distance, timing, footwork and use of energy. Some people say that you can learn the wing chun system in 3 years - for sure - theres only 3 empty hand forms, 1 wooden man form and 2 weapons... u could easily remember the sequence of them in around 3 days! BUT its both an internal and external skill - it takes a lot of refinement to develop the skill properly. Right now, sure i have trained almost 3 years and have used it for 'real' before. Thankfully i was ok. i have also trained with many other stylists such as pak mei, southern mantis, muay thai, jeet kune do, aikido etc. but that by no means makes me good or an expert! i just need to look at my class and see that most are senior to me and untouchable by me... so that shows how much scope there is to develop the skill. Right now my Tai Sigung (like my grandfather), yip mans eldest son is almost 80 years old and yet his skill is still very good. If it was so easy to learn why bother training until that age?

                    As far as the yim wing chun legend, sure she trained for a year - even if the legend is true. But it also doesnt tell us how powerful her enemy was and if she got lucky... so many variables. As for bruce lee - he trained around 4 years i think, and learned up to the second wing chun empty hand form and some dummy techniques. once in america he had no real contact with his sifu, so thats why jeet kune do developed.

                    Also for wing chun there are many different branches... mine comes from yip man who is a famous master and had many students in china and hong kong. There are also some others called for example: yuen kay san, ga luo (pien san), hung suen... and many different branches in each of those!
                    I have read lots of the archive stuff about this school and that, and all the argumentation over who's sifu is best and unfortunately am still at a loss as to which direction to go. China? Europe? I want to learn from a master of the highest fighting skill, ability, and knowledge that can teach Wing Chun and at least one of the other 4 high-systems mentioned above. I have no interest whatsoever in wushu.
                    Well - wing chun is everywhere ... but GOOD wing chun is different. Also you have to think practically... if you dont speak chinese fluently do you really think you can learn and understand something as complicated as traditional chinese martial arts? in china? do you think you can just learn something by being shown it? i would say sorry, but you cant.
                    I am only interested in real, combat tested, traditional kung fu training, and traditional kung fu sparring
                    how many people these days ACTUALLY use kung fu? i would say unless you are part of a triad gang or something (who usually learn pak mei or southern mantis) then no. Sparring is NOT fighting so make that clear distinction.
                    training in kung fu intensely for at least 6 to 8 hrs./day every day for a year.
                    how long have you ever done any activity for before? have you ever done any martial art? what about stance training or stretching? if not then it will take a LONG time to be able to do that. Traditional martial arts have stance training as very important. How long can you hold the "horse stance" for? if its not 20 mins or more without moving then you have to train more! and thats just the start! At the most, i have trained for around 4 hours a day, but that involved both physical training, and qigong (with meditation). At first it burns and kills you, then you get used to it. Just step by step and dont rush. you need to build your level first.
                    simple and natural is my method,
                    true and sincere is my principle --Tse Sigung

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      part 2

                      there is a difference between the completeness, practicality, and effectiveness of certain styles; hence high systems and low systems of kung fu; or the difference between complete systems such as the ones I mentioned and styles that are not complete systems (Karate, Muey Thai, Aikido, etc. They can all be very effective styles, but not as effective as the complete systems which, in the martial arts world are only found in kung fu, although not all kung fu styles are complete systems)
                      you really need to get rid of that pre-conception my friend... how much you learn and understand from a skill depends on a) your teacher and b) yourself. ANY skill. i have trained aikido and used it successfully against boxers, muay thai, kung fu and other things, also when i got mugged and attacked by 2 people (one had a bottle).

                      For sure, looking at northern shaolin - it looks very big and open - wing chun looks very small and compact. How can they both be practical? Thats why you need a good teacher to help you see the principles and body movement - or else no matter shaolin or wing chun, its just "wushu forms" Dont be so confused that something like shaolin is long range and wing chun is just close range... there is only fighting range... the distance when my fist can touch you and where yours can touch mine.

                      If you are interested in also an internal martial art, wing chun is good, also taijiquan. There is also something called xingyiquan, which is very direct and powerful... a good website for this is http://www.emptyflower.com/xingyiquan they have good articles and even some good video clips.

                      The taiji skill i have seen and trained a little is called Chen family Taijiquan. The form is very good for increasing flexibility, relaxation and posture, as well as developing body connection and power thru the body. It takes a long time ot get right but is worth it Taijiquan has many different "Qin Na" techniques - locking, grabbing, hitting and throwing techniques, some look very nasty to me (and feel it too!). its a very poweful skill.

                      I am exceptionally fit and have a few years of training in: -please don't laugh. . . tae kwon do.
                      thats good But also chinese martial art structure is different from taekwondo, even the "horse stance" which is the foundation. some of the toughest guys i sparred when i used to compete were from tkd - man they could kick fast!

                      like i said before if you favor wing chun(and you obviously do) talk to dave he trains with an org that has schools all over the world(i think) and they implement wild goose chi kung into their training regime..as well as teaching Chen style taijijuan(which is known espcially for its combat effectiveness)
                      sorry just saw that at the end of my post ummm... the website link should be in my profile. take a look and pm me if you have any questions. i dont know much but ill help any way i can We dont have schools all over the world... mainly in the UK and some also in new york, seattle, canada and hawaii as well as sweden. its just a small group

                      good luck and if you can be clearer maybe we can help more
                      dave
                      simple and natural is my method,
                      true and sincere is my principle --Tse Sigung

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        lol

                        yknow dave you could have actually helped michael and just given him the url to your website and the name of your org..instead of telling him a bunch of heresay that he could learn from a couple hours of reading

                        get with the program didnt you follow the convo?
                        "did you ask me to consider dick with you??" blooming tianshi lotus

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          As for bruce lee - he trained around 4 years i think, and learned up to the second wing chun empty hand form and some dummy techniques.

                          As far as Bruce Lee's training in wing tsun, according to a friend of mine who really knew him (as opposed to all those people who say they "knew" him, lol), Bruce left that grandmaster, damn, I forget his name, before he learned that entire first wooden dummy form. He went his own way before he finished that training, which, from what I understand, caused a rift between the two.

                          I've tried to learn that first form, and I've taken some seminars in wing tsun. Didn't really like the stances or the punches all that much. Felt kind of "weak" to me. Seidokan and Shaolin are far more "rooted" and powerful in my opinion. I do like the dummy arm work associated with it though. Gonna have to play with that some more.

                          Michael, with respect to your initial post, I'm working on it. The guys have done an excellent job so far of presenting information to you.

                          A bit cold and foggy here in Beijing,
                          doc
                          Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

                          "You're just a jaded cynical mother****er...." Jeffpeg

                          (more comments in my User Profile)
                          russbo.com


                          Comment


                          • #14
                            doc: yup, as far as i know he learned a few of the postures of the dummy and tried to "buy" Yip Man doing the dummy form on film so he could study back in the USA... this is kinda what caused the rift as well, it wasnt taken too nicely as far as i can tell.

                            As far as the form, power generation and stuff - ur a big guy - its meant for us small peeps lol

                            im sure your shaolin has some method similar to dummy training - i know choy li fut does but their dummy is different to ours, which is specific to wing chun. it would be hard to do much with it if you didnt use our postures and footwork etc.

                            vince: if u know so much and can easily find it in a book or website then why didnt u post it?

                            dave
                            simple and natural is my method,
                            true and sincere is my principle --Tse Sigung

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Thanks, Doc. I'm looking forward to seeing the info your digging up for me.

                              Dave, you seem to be fairly knowledgable about wing chun and taijijuan, but as for your perceptions of what styles are and what styles aren't "Shaolin," there are many, many sites on the internet and even on this very forum that all agree that N. and S. Preying Mantis, and Dragon are all official Shaolin styles that were not only taught at the Shaolin temples, but were actually concieved there by particular Shaolin monks. As far as your claim that S. Preying Mantis, Dragon and Pak Mei are all Hakka arts. . . only Pak Mei is. S. Preying Mantis and Dragon were taught in the Shaolin temple. You also contradicted yourself when you said that "shaolin does have some mantis forms and dragon" and then later said that Dragon and Pak Mei were not only Hakka (non-shaolin), but taught together. If Dragon is Hakka, which it is not, it wouldn't have been taught in the temple like it was. Also, it was not originally taught with Pak Mei which was a Hakka art and therefore not "Shaolin." As far as "how many people today actually use kung fu?," not very many people, to answer your question, but only because not many westerners know any kung fu (as opposed to tkd, karate, muey thai, etc.), not because it is an ineffective or outdated form of self defense! Triad gang members, by the way, actually are known for almost exclusively using your style, Wing Chun. In fact, before Bruce Lee made it world famous, the Triads were responsible for making it infamous in Hong Kong. And as for your second post where you told me to get rid of the preconception that there are high and low systems of kung fu and that the most effective fighting systems are the "complete systems" which are only found in kung fu. Why would you say this? The experts on martial arts and especially kung fu all agree that not all systems are equal. It's quite simple really. . . lets say that you have a set of identical twins. One learns one style and one learns another style. No two styles are going to be exactly equal in terms of effectiveness, practicality, speed, power, or any other aspect. Therefore, if the students are identical and put in the same amount of practice/effort, the superior style WILL win. To suggest that it doesn't really matter what style you have, but only how good of a teacher and how hard the student works is just rediculous. You mentioned that you successfully used aikido against muey thai and kung fu, and other styles. Good. That means that you were a much better athlete than your opponent, not that their style is no more effective than yours or vice versa. You are making broad claims basing it only on personal experience, but you can't do that because kung fu out dates your experience by 1500 years not to mention all the other masters and students that have learned things that you haven't yet. I mean no offense by any of this by the way. Thank you for your responses to me and keep them coming. I just didn't want to let someone go off miss informed.

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