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Thread: Tai Chi integrity

  1. #1
    Wasiqi is offline Registered Member: no custom title Registered Member
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    Tai Chi integrity

    I have read that when the "powers that were" in China demanded that Yang teach them his style of Tai Chi, he purposely slowed it down and "forgot" to add in some postures and transitions(whoops). The current form Yang form is directly based off this system. Furthermore, thanks to various other "powers" the system has been mutated and changed quite often. Are we really studying the Yang version of Tai Chi or the delapitaded version it was changed to and has become? Personally, I think that Yang probably taught his students the proper methods and it has remained relatively intact amongst them. What about Chen or Wu? Are the systems that we are being taught today really what was intended? What are your thoughts?

  2. #2
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    depends..

    depends whos teaching you!

    depends what you do etc..some teachers will teach you one thing and another student something else...

    but i mean..i dont think taiji has lost its integrity considering yang style isnt the first style of taiji just a famous one..

    i see it this way...why is it so famous if its not effective for something? health, combat, spiritual cultivation etc..

    i think even if yang did leave somethings out which i dont think he did..youd still gain a tremendous amount just from going through some of the basic taiji forms..

    just my oppinion anyway

    peace
    "did you ask me to consider dick with you??" blooming tianshi lotus

  3. #3
    i think its important to understand why the skill was taught in certain ways to different people. but really, the foundation will still be there - "song" (relax) "peng" (ward off) and all the rest related to body structure and useage. It doesnt matter if low stance or higher stance - if you have a root and body connection then you have skill.

    its known for example that yang cheng fu had the form we see commonly today - but his brother yang shou hou was much more obviously martial in line with yang lu chan (who learned from chen family). Nowadays there seems to be many "old" yang forms which try to capitalize on that fact. Then all this talk about "dim mak" and other things... its all interesting but hard to separate the real from the added on.

    Its very clear that yang family does not much resemble the Chen family forms - which are more obviously martial. But that doesnt mean yang and even Wu are not Look at the likes of Yang Zhen Duo for example - one of the foremost taijiquan practitioners. He is still actively training well in to old age, and i have seen some clips of him doing push hands and its very impressive

    i think it would also depend on how much pushing hands training and application training was done - if the teacher knows them its cool, but if not, then you only have the health side. Also weapons which help you to understand the internal aspect and develop power.

    Again, it depends on why the people were training. if as history says it was the beijing upper class - then mainly for health with less emphasis on the fighting side. That doesnt mean it wasnt taught though

    just some thoughts,
    dave
    simple and natural is my method,
    true and sincere is my principle --Tse Sigung

  4. #4
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    In the Tai Chi classics it says that they taught the royal family just the soft stuff and got them interested in mysticism and stuff. I don't know if that actually happened, but the analogy could be that there are people who want to learn tai chi and there are people who want to vaguely half assedly say they "study tai chi" and they don't really understand it.
    "I'm like Tupac: Who can stop me?"

  5. #5
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    that's the tai chi boxing chronicle actually, not the tai chi classics
    "I'm like Tupac: Who can stop me?"

  6. #6
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    traditionnal yang

    First for the info so you know where this comes from:
    I practice Chen Shi tai ji in Henan and won a few golden medals in china-

    Then:
    For what I have seen, many people, in practicing taiji chuan ignore the use of fajings/ chansi / wu bu zhuang or the meaning of postures...
    They do not how to apply their tranning in tui shou.
    Most of them even ignore what tuishou is!

    I now that Traditionnal Yang style however do not commit the same mistake, but it is sad that people practicing taiji around the world have absolutly no idea of this.


    Wrong practice, unproper use of intent and energy circulation in the forms.
    What are people practing today?

  7. #7
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    um, the way i understood the whole thing was that yang was invited to teach the royal bodyguards in beijing and he became so popular that he started teaching to the public. i would hardly say he 'forgot' to teach essential concepts. its just that when you teach things openly and to the public you have to change the training methods. while it may 'watering-down' to some people, its really just making the change from a privately taught martial arts to a publicly taught martial art. you saw the same thing with judo and aikido....its the same junk as the old-style jujutsu, its just that judo and aikido are meant for 'the people' rather than military and bodyguards, thus its training methods are different (and in my opinion, much better!). the situation with taiji, however, is a bit different. you have some people teaching it for health only, and then on the other side you have complete arrogant jerks like erle monte-whats-his-face. no wonder the taiji community is in such disarray with a lot of pansy ass bickering and idol worship. so, i wouldn't blame the 'watering down' of taiji on past masters (after all, zheng man qing went undefeated!), i would blame the community of today.
    -Jesse Pasleytm
    "How do I know? Because my sensei told me!"

  8. #8
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    take boxing as an example: say you want to become the next Sonny Liston. You go to whatever is available first, probably the crudd-o class at your gym where you work out. So there you learn some fundamentals, but very basically nothing in the way of combat. It's mostly for excercise and a basic curiosity about how to fight. For many, this is plenty. say you want to take the next step. So you go to either a private teacher or some sort of gym and get into it a little deeper with once a week of some hard work and probably some light to medium sparring and you spend a little more time than most solo with the heavy bag/ speed bag, etc this would be enough for many.
    But you want to take the next step, etc. So if your taiji/ tai chi instuction is only at that first level, you have to do something to get to the next level and there are not too many places that will do that.
    "I'm like Tupac: Who can stop me?"

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wasiqi
    I have read that when the "powers that were" in China demanded that Yang teach them his style of Tai Chi, he purposely slowed it down and "forgot" to add in some postures and transitions(whoops). The current form Yang form is directly based off this system. Furthermore, thanks to various other "powers" the system has been mutated and changed quite often. Are we really studying the Yang version of Tai Chi or the delapitaded version it was changed to and has become? Personally, I think that Yang probably taught his students the proper methods and it has remained relatively intact amongst them. What about Chen or Wu? Are the systems that we are being taught today really what was intended? What are your thoughts?
    Well just cause you read it doesn't make it true, and no one will ever really know.
    I personally think that he just changed some moves slightly, but i think the original had slow and fast forms.

    For whatever reason (i suppose for health) they made large frame, I don't know why but they did, and since they have done that it just makes it harder for people to keep up with what was the original style (chen, yang etc.) supposed to look like.

    No i don't think the systems (large frame) is what was intended, its not like there were no health benefits with the small frame. I have learned some large frame and I know that they have applications and all similar to the old frame. But just because they were not what was originally intended I don't think that they are any less capable then the original way, i just perfer the original way because I think its less complicated.
    well thats what i think anyway

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