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So is Bodhidharma just a fable?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by zachsan
    so are you saying that certain martial techniques originated in shaolin, but not ch'an buddhism? if so, it would seem that the linking of ch'an buddhism and the legend of bodhidharma with shaolin martial arts is mostly an invention to lend credibility to shaolin gongfu.
    Mostly Shaolin was known for staff technigues in ancient times and simple Lohan forms.
    All the forms that came into being now known as Shaolin are all traced back to the
    Sung Dynasty, to Abbott Fu Yu.

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    • #17
      Oh, no I am not saying Ch'an sect wasn't from Shaolin, I am saying Shaolin boxing was not from Da Mo and neither were the main nei-gungs of Lohan Shaolin.
      These came from other sources.

      He might have preached Ch'an Sectarianism there, and from that it developed.

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      • #18
        well ok, but that still leaves open the question of why da mo has become such an iconic figure in martial arts, gongfu especially. while i'm sure this could simply be a mistake and constant repetition of that mistake, it seems more likely (to me) that it's a classic case of the chinese habit of attaching styles to certain well-regarded historical figures after the fact to lend credibility. (sorry if that sentence didn't make sense.)

        in other words, you seem very knowledgeable on the history of the legend, i was just wondering if you knew anything we didn't about the reasons.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by zachsan
          well ok, but that still leaves open the question of why da mo has become such an iconic figure in martial arts, gongfu especially. while i'm sure this could simply be a mistake and constant repetition of that mistake, it seems more likely (to me) that it's a classic case of the chinese habit of attaching styles to certain well-regarded historical figures after the fact to lend credibility. (sorry if that sentence didn't make sense.)

          in other words, you seem very knowledgeable on the history of the legend, i was just wondering if you knew anything we didn't about the reasons.
          Well, during the Ming and Ching it was the "rage" to attribute your writings to ancient people to give it the force of their endorsment. Most books from then did this. It was a marketing ploy, plain and simple.

          Somehow somewhere it was benefiting someone to say that Damo developed the Shaolin martial arts.

          Also, one thing that might be a factor, Shaolin arts were being introduced into Japan and
          the Japanese while loving the techinques might not have loved that they were coing from China.
          So, they might have sugar coated Shaolin with having an Indian origin, so that might China only the relay to Japan.

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          • #20
            it's funny, you usually see the political manipulations of the chinese and japanese as being contradictory to each other. when they combine, it's not so hard to imagine them rewriting history...

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Sal Canzonieri

              When you say "he was a sage so that makes him a neigung master anyway" that sounds like you just picked that up from hearing other people say it. Where is there a rule that every sage is a neigung master?
              You can't be enlightened without Neigong. All that stuff about people being instantaneously enlightened because their master asked them a question are just stories.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Sal Canzonieri

                Yes, Shaolin seems to be more fire, but there are a lot of fire chi gungs in Taoism too.
                Certainly there were people coming from India / etc to China and many temples let people come and lecture and give seminars on their sect's ideas. Many people were going back and forth, so who knows who brought what over.
                And Da Mo could well have been one of those people who came from India and brought over some methods.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by emre
                  You can't be enlightened without Neigong. All that stuff about people being instantaneously enlightened because their master asked them a question are just stories.
                  emre man, da mo is an historical question. we need to answer historical questions through study and research, not through philosophy.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by emre
                    You can't be enlightened without Neigong. All that stuff about people being instantaneously enlightened because their master asked them a question are just stories.
                    And why not?
                    People in Buddhism and Taoism get enlightened from art, from gardening, from sex, from poetry,
                    from meditation, from archery, and all these things can be done without neigong.
                    Sure they all can be enhanced by neigung, but it are not absolutely needed.

                    How did Prince Sidhartha get enlightened to become the Buddha?
                    Nei gung?

                    Satori is jap for Enlightenment, and there are many many instances of this without neigung.

                    Westerners have practiced Enlightenment (for example, Kaballalists) for centuries too and have had the same conclusions as Taoists and Buddhists without any nei gung, just meditation and study and practice at an art.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by emre
                      And Da Mo could well have been one of those people who came from India and brought over some methods.
                      All that can be proven as fact is that he came there and meditated there.
                      for years.

                      He might have brought over ideas that were later applied to other things.
                      But no facts exist about this.

                      It's hard to let go about things that you beleive in , like Santa Claus.

                      There is no historical proof anywhere the Jesus existed for real outside of scripture, so for all anyone
                      knows he could be a comic book superhero story and today everyone thinks he was real.

                      Same thing here with Damo.
                      He lived and he went to Shaolin and meditated there for years.
                      That's the only historical facts that exist today.

                      All the is said about Damo is from stories that are not based on facts.

                      Maybe one day someone willl find something somewhere that will show exactly what Damo taught at Shaolin.
                      Meanwhile, like Jesus, you can believe all you want to believe from other people's made up stories.

                      These stories can be proven by researching their sources that they are not true stories.
                      That's the crux of it.

                      Shaolin Martial arts are GREAT! So why get stuck at Damo,
                      there is so much to discuss about the facts that are now known for real that many people hardly know about.

                      (I will start a new thread on this info)

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                      • #26
                        No point in arguing this.

                        Originally posted by Sal Canzonieri
                        All that can be proven as fact is that he came there and meditated there.
                        for years.
                        You mean he did Neigong? I'm shocked. He didn't garden?

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by emre
                          No point in arguing this.



                          You mean he did Neigong? I'm shocked. He didn't garden?
                          We're just having a friendly discussion, not arguing, I hope.

                          Meditation is not necessarily neigung.
                          Western nuns and monks meditate with no neigung.

                          neigung is internal exercises, that' what the words translate as from Chinese.

                          Sitting in one position for hours and praying can be done without neigung,
                          as most of the world's meditators have done forever.

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                          • #28
                            So you believe Da Mo just sat and prayed for all those years?

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                            • #29
                              Let's talk about Buddhism a little.

                              Monastic Buddhism didn't enter into China until the 3rd Century. Buddhism before that was something that only scholars studied. Back in the 3rd century in what we now call Vietnam, there were already Buddhist Monasteries set up, particularly one called Dharma Cloud Temple (Chinese Fayunsi, Vietnamese Chua Phap Van). Many Indian monks came over and taught Buddhism and ordained non-Chinese, because at that time the Chinese were NOT allowed to be ordained.

                              Now at this time Vietnam was a part of China, and the Emperor of China did not like Buddhism, he thought it was foreign and barbaric (how Chinese!). In Vietnam at the time there was a monk named Tang Hoi; this monk grew up in the temple due to the fact that his parents died early. Master Tang Hoi went on to become a very learned monk, and at one point made his way into what is now known as South China. He settle there and taught Buddhism and constructed what was known as the first Buddhist temple of China. He later moved up to Laoyang (I think that's right) and was challenged by the Imperial court of the time, later winning the heart (and pocket) of the Emperor. The Emperor had constructed another temple there. It is reported that the people had yet to ever see a Buddhist monk until Tang Hoi showed up.

                              Tang Hoi had taught Theravada Meditation techniques in a Mahayana way, which is the Predecessor to Chan Buddhism. If you ever take a look at Theravada meditation teachings and you know what real Chan meditation is, than you will see some extraordinary similarities. Particularly those of the Forest Traditions, where meditation is a main focus.

                              If you know Taoist practices, you will notice that there is some influence combined with Indian Yoga on Chan meditation practices; such as following the breath to the dan tien. In traditional Buddhist meditation, it is taught to actually follow the breath at the tip of the nose. It is not until we get to China does it shift to the dan tien. Why you may ask, because the Buddha NEVER taught energy and/or yoga practice. The teaching was meant for one thing and one thing only, Liberation from Suffering. Which does not have anything to do with being a neigung master. You practice meditation to liberate the heart/mind, it had NOTHING to do with yoga/qigong. That came later with the influence of Taoism in China, where qigong and neigong practices are required for spiritual liberation.

                              It is imho that Chan Buddhism was in China before we would like to think that Bodhidharma showed, it just had not been given it's Chinese flavor that we so often depict it having.

                              I hope that we continue this dialog, it's really interesting, but don't forget to practice!!!
                              "For some reason I'm in a good mood today. I haven't left the house yet, though. "

                              "fa hui, you make buddhism sexy." -Zachsan

                              "Friends don't let friends do Taekwondo." -Nancy Reagan

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by emre
                                So you believe Da Mo just sat and prayed for all those years?
                                I have nothing to believe, that is the point.
                                Objectively, that's all is factually known.
                                Why should I make up stuff or accept other people's made up stuff
                                when very little is known. That's nuts, think it out.
                                So, I don't believe or disbelieve anything about Damo, I
                                only know what is factually known, the rest is stories or even lies, actually.

                                Like Heaven, does it matter if I believe or not believe in it?
                                There is no way for me to know if it is real until I die.So, as far as Heaven goes
                                I don't believe or not believe in it, I have nothing to prove it in either direction.

                                It does not affect Shaolin in any way what Damo did for real.

                                It does affect Shaolin what stories are made up because it fools people, it misleads people,
                                it points people in the wrong direction, it hides what really happened, etc.

                                There are many other more important historical facts that affect shaolin much much more.
                                These need to be discussed and I will on a new thread soon.

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