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So is Bodhidharma just a fable?

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Fa Hui
    Let's talk about Buddhism a little.


    If you know Taoist practices, you will notice that there is some influence combined with Indian Yoga on Chan meditation practices; such as following the breath to the dan tien. In traditional Buddhist meditation, it is taught to actually follow the breath at the tip of the nose. It is not until we get to China does it shift to the dan tien. Why you may ask, because the Buddha NEVER taught energy and/or yoga practice. The teaching was meant for one thing and one thing only, Liberation from Suffering. Which does not have anything to do with being a neigung master. You practice meditation to liberate the heart/mind, it had NOTHING to do with yoga/qigong. That came later with the influence of Taoism in China, where qigong and neigong practices are required for spiritual liberation.

    You don't have to work with the lower Dan Tien for your practice to be considered Neigong. Taoists don't only work with the lower Dan Tien anyway. You're just talking about different methods here.

    It's not like Taoists meditate for the sake of meditation. They meditate to liberate their heart/mind too. Yoga and Qigong are tools that help in that pursuit by preparing your body.

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    • #32
      the point is, neigung can be considered meditation, but meditation does not necessarily involve neigung.

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      • #33
        Neigong is internal skill.

        Meditation is internal skill. Learning to calm your mind is an internal skill that is acquired through practice. Learning to breathe deeply is an internal skill acquired through practice. Samadhi is an internal skill acquired through practice.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by emre
          Neigong is internal skill.

          Meditation is internal skill.
          okay, but meditation does not equal neigung,

          Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.:

          meditating

          Meditate \Med"i*tate\, v. i. [imp. & p. p. Meditated; p. pr. & vb. n. Meditating.] [L. meditatus, p. p. of meditari to meditate; cf. Gr. ? to learn, E. mind.] To keep the mind in a state of contemplation; to dwell on anything in thought; to think seriously; to muse; to cogitate; to reflect. --Jer. Taylor.

          In his law doth he meditate day and night. --Ps. i. 2.


          and therefore, you cannot use the statement,
          All that can be proven as fact is that he came there and meditated there.
          for years.
          as proof that bodhidharma practiced neigung at shaolin, much less that he taught the monks neigung techniques.

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          • #35
            The dictionary definition of meditation is irrelevant.

            When it is said Boddidharma meditated for 9 years, it's pretty obvious what kind of meditation is being talked about here.

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            • #36
              i'm sorry emre, i don't even know how to respond anymore. the dictionary definition is irrelevant? "pretty obvious"? not to mention the fact that you're using the content of a legend as proof of itself!

              in lieu of breaking down every step of logic that i'm making, i'm just gonna call it a day.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by emre
                The dictionary definition of meditation is irrelevant.

                When it is said Boddidharma meditated for 9 years, it's pretty obvious what kind of meditation is being talked about here.
                Even if you are right, by chance, all we are saying is that there is not factual evidence
                at this time.
                So, if you want to say that you have a "hunch" that he used nei gung, fine, that's okay.

                I would have that same "hunch" too.

                You can research what nei gungs were being practiced where and how they got from one
                place to another during what years and time periods, if you really wanted to prove your point
                factually instead.

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                • #38
                  I was told by Shi Heng Jun the other day that Buddhist scriptures were brought via the silk road to the White Horse Temple, outside of Louyang, in 71 AD. And that to study and translate these, monks at the Da Fa Wang temple, in Songshan, brought these scripts there. Buddhism actually had more of a distant history at Da Fa Wang than it did at Shaolin.

                  Shaolin became more "famous" because the emperor Li Shimin, who was rescued by thirteen monks, eventually placed a more significant emphasis on Shaolin temple from a historical point of view, because of its associated martial arts history.

                  Thus the legend continues. And is altered to this day....
                  Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

                  "You're just a jaded cynical mother****er...." Jeffpeg

                  (more comments in my User Profile)
                  russbo.com


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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by zachsan
                    i'm sorry emre, i don't even know how to respond anymore. the dictionary definition is irrelevant? "pretty obvious"? not to mention the fact that you're using the content of a legend as proof of itself!

                    in lieu of breaking down every step of logic that i'm making, i'm just gonna call it a day.
                    So let me get this straight. Your logic is that it's OK to use the English dictionary definition of the word meditation when talking about Chinese history and completely ignore the context.

                    In most versions I read it said Da Mo "faced the wall for 9 years". That's a Taoist way of saying "practiced Internal Alchemy". Of course, you can always look at your Webster's and tell us that it just means looking at a flat surface for 9 years.

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                    • #40
                      well emre, we happen to be speaking english. i'm not going to get into a debate about why, when we use english words, we are referring to their english meanings.

                      instead, i'll only repeat the point of what i'm saying, which is, you can't prove historical points with philosophy.

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                      • #41
                        Another such missionary from India was Bodhidharma, a legend who would change the history of China. It is said that Bodhidharma was born of the Kashatriyas caste, the third son of a king, circa 470 CE in the south/eastern Indian province of Tamil Nadu, the city of Kanjeeveram a.k.a. Kanchi (modern day Kanchipuram), south of Madars. As a young Prince Bodhidharma would have studied armed and unarmed combat, such as vajramushti or kalaippayat. In later life he would have learned the yogic practices of Hatha, Raja and Kundalini.

                        Nothing is truly known of the origins of Bodhidharma. He gave up his true name when he joined the Buddhist order, then when another change entered his life his name was changed again by his master, Prajnadhara, to what we know: Bodhidharma, "he who has reached enlightenment." It is my belief that legend has him as the "third son" because in many cultures large families were had because of loss of children due to illness and war. The duty of the first son (daughters were not worth mentioning in history) was to the parents (especially heir to a kingdom), the second son would be a soldier (especially in the Kashatriyas caste), and the third son a priest. This is of course an ideal situation, but legends are ideal stories. Many have Bodhidharma as belonging to the Brahman caste, but this would have made him one of the priestly caste. Kanjeeveram was originally a Buddhist centre run by kings. Further more the legend, as it stands, links Bodhidharma to the legend of Siddhartha Gotama the first son of a king. Siddhartha abandoned material goods (a small price) but more importantly familiar duty to his father, his wife and of course Siddhartha left the very night his son was born. According to legend as Siddhartha was about to gaze upon his new born son his sleeping wife, Yasodhara, moved blocking the child from view, or Siddhartha would not have had the heart to leave, all this he sacrificed to find release from moksha and teach the world.

                        As a monk Bodhidharma was the twenty-eighth in a direct line back to the Buddha himself. When Buddha held his famous sermon on Vulture Peak, surrounded by many disciples he merely held up a flower without speaking. Of all those present only Kashyapa understood this special transmission outside of orthodox teaching, and smiled. This was the first "transmission of the lamp," a direct teaching of Mind with out words, at that Buddha acknowledged his enlightenment and confirmed him Mahakashyapa, first patriarch of Chan.

                        The Patriarches (those who are an important link in the early founding transmission) are as follows:
                        1- Mahakashyapa, 2- Ananda (the Buddha's cousin), 3- Shanavasin, 4- Upagupta, 5- Dhitika, 6- Mishaka, 7- Vasumitra, 8- Buddhanandi, 9- Buddhamitra, 10- Parshva, 11- Punyayasha, 12- Anabodhi, 13- Kapimala, 14- Nagarjuna, 15- Kanadeva, 16- Rahulabhadra, 17- Samghanandi, 18- Samghayathata, 19- Kumaralata, 20- Shayata, 21- Vasubandhu, 22- Manorata, 23- Haklenayasha, 24- Simhabodhi, 25- Basha****a, 26- Punyamitra, 27- Prajnadhara, 28- Bodhidharma.

                        According to Fr. AMA Samy of the Bodhi Zendo in Madras India, "This patriarchal lineage may be a Zen invention, that historically many of the names are there, but that the exact lineage is perhaps myth created to justify Zen."

                        Most sources speak of Bodhidharma walking into China, only a few speak of him sailing. While it makes for good story I find it difficult to believe that a man in his fifties, who having decided to do missionary work would walk the length of India, traverse the Himalayas, and cross the berth of China, a journey thousands of kilometers. I think it more likely that living near the Bay of Bengal, he would have sailed to Guangzhou (Canton) where he eventually made his way to the capital, Nanjing. Abbot Yongxin agrees saying that, "In the third year of the Xiaochang Regime in the North Wei Dynasty (527 C.E.), Bodhidharma, the Senior Monk from ancient India, arrived in Guangzhou from the sea after a three-year journey and met with Emperor Liangwu of the South Dynasty in Jianye (an ancient name for Nanjing)."

                        Bodhidharma, which the Chinese pronounced, Pu-Ti-Da-Mo, arrived in China circa 527 C.E. He was to meet Emperor Liangwu, who was thrilled to met another eminent foreign monk, and show off all the good works he had done in the name of Buddha. Perhaps he could even persuade Damo to build a temple, Emperor Liangwu had had many temples built, supported many monks and nuns, as well as ordered the translation of sutras from Sanskrit to Chinese so that all the peoples of his great kingdom could more readily practice their adopted religion. The Emperor believed this magnanimity to be his personal path to nirvana (enlightenment). However Damo informed him this was not the path to nirvana, that in fact it would work against him; nirvana could not be gained by having others perform good deeds in his name, that outward appearances mean nothing, enlightenment can only be attained by looking inward. The Emperor was not pleased with this condemnation of his gracious actions, and so Damo took his leave. Unlike Alexander the Great, Bodhidharma had no one recording his deeds as he went. The record of the meeting between he and Emperor Liangwu is held by the Chan Buddhists and most likely shows their attitude toward the practice of Buddhism by lay peoples (followers of Buddha who are not monks or nuns) at that time.

                        Leaving Nanjing Damo headed north to the capital of Henan province, Loyang, to do this he had to cross the mighty Changjiang (Yangtze River). According to legend, to prevent the master from leaving the people set all their boats adrift so he could not cross. Taking a single reed Damo threw it upon the water, calmed his spirit, and lightly stepped upon the reed, allowing the breeze to sail him across the great river.

                        Wandering Henan province, Damo probably arrived in Dengfeng, where he was told of a temple in the mountains thirteen kilometers northwest of the city. Eventually reaching the temple he was warmly welcomed, however, the monks of Shaolin spent a great deal of their time translating scriptures as per the Emperor's decree, the head monk worried that Damo, who's Chan Buddhism did not believe in book learning, would disrupt life in the temple, and so bade him to stay outside the temple. It was true that Damo had traveled a great distance to teach that the wisdom of Buddha did not come from the performing of rituals, or reading and translating books. You can not read about how a strawberry tastes, it must be tasted! Wisdom does not come from external forces but from within. He believed one must become as indifferent as a wall to outside distractions, free of attachments, this can only be done by doing, not reading or making offerings. So for nine years Damo lived his teaching in a cave above the temple, practicing meditation before the rock face of the mountains surrounding Shaolin. It was said his penetrating stare bore holes into the cliff, that birds nested unnoticed in his hair, and his ears could detect the crawling of insects along the ground. Once, during meditation, he fell asleep, to prevent this from ever happening again he cut off his eyelids, and tea plants grew where the eyelids had been flung. This story was probably created during the Tang Dynasty when tea was used as a stimulant to help monks remain awake during their long hours of meditation. The number nine in Chinese cosmology is associated with things auspicious and significant to man, it represents longevity, enlightenment and clarity. This is why nine is attributed to Damo, not that it was the actual number of years he spent living in a cave. The head monk eventually relented after seeing Damo's dedicated practice, at age sixty-six Damo was allowed entrance to the temple as first Patriarch of Chan Buddhism.

                        Damo quickly recognized the depleted condition of the monk's bodies and thus their spirits. Too many hours spent translating texts with out proper exercise and food had weakened them so they no longer had the discipline to focus their minds in meditation, too often monks were falling asleep during this time. Damo explained to the monks that the body and mind are not separate but one. The mind could be developed only when the body had been disciplined, and so he introduced physical exercise into the regiment of temple life. Damo began to teach the monks yogic techniques, to cultivate prana and stimulate Kundalini, thus he instated three sets of exercises: Lohan Shi Ba Shou (Eighteen Hands of Buddha), Yi Jin Jing (Book of Changing Tendons), and Xi Shui Jing (Book of Washing Bone Marrow). These were standing forms designed for proper body posture, to stimulate what the Chinese call qi, increase circulation, and strengthen muscle and tendons. With their bodies thus invigorated the monks could now easily focus their minds through out the long sessions of meditation. Out of these exercises came the rudiments of boxing such as the horse stance, and the idea of battling against one's own will to achieve spiritual perfection, and to ignore pain as a means of clearing the mind. Chan Buddhism had to do with finding enlightenment in simple every day labour, the washing of a bowl, repairing the temple, even the eating of a meal, all were done with gongfu. So it came to be that the Chan Buddhists were the first sect to become completely self-sufficient. Instead of begging the monks tilled and planted their own gardens to support the temple; with wall like indifference to heat, cold, rain, snow, and pain, these things did not matter, only the single minded pursuit of enlightenment.

                        These are the things attributed to Damo. It is quite probable that such a man existed, although where he might have come from is pure speculation. Some sources say he came from Sri Lanka, others believe he was actually Persian, and the practices he taught were based on Sufism. As we saw in earlier chapters, many Persians converted to Buddhism, and the practices of the Sufis are not too different from what Damo is believed to have taught the Shaolin monks. Further more, Damo is sometimes described as having blue eyes, a Persian trait. However the book of changes he is purported to have written does not exist prior to 1827. While there are those who may argue that the words were not written down until later, that they may have been lost in fires and recopied from memory, or just never published until more recently, the whole style of writing is different from the time of Damo. Very few historians believe the book is from the time of Damo. Of Damo, abbot Yongxin says, "The Ancestral Master is worshipped as the first ancestor of Chan Buddhism, and the Shaolin Temple is so regarded as the ancestral court for Chan Buddhism". As for martial arts, Yongxin goes on to say, "Shaolin wushu has become well-known worldwide since Dharma, The Ancestral Master invented the Changing Tendons and Washing the Bone Marrow Eighteen Hands and the accumulations and summarization by the martial monks in generations."

                        Many other legends abound about Bodhidharma, that he wandered further through China having mystical adventures, or that he eventually reached Japan to bring them Zen. Some sources say he lived past one hundred years of age and was eventually poisoned by jealous monks. It is more likely the man who became known as Damo died of natural causes around age seventy-three in China.

                        Life size statues were made with outlandish features, as Arhats (Lohan in Chinese) the original disciples of Buddha, were believed by the Chinese to act as protectors of the Buddhist faith. Bodhidharma himself is represented as a formidable, dark skinned, "barbarian" master, with a fierce expression, big rolling eyes, and nose.

                        We do know that Bodhidharma's successor was a monk named Hui Ke. According to Hui Ke's legend in order to get Damo's attention during his 9 year vigil at the wall, and prove that he was a serious student, Hui Ke cut off his own arm before the great master. After this Damo took him as a disciple & at death made him the second Patriarch of Chan. The Chan Patriarchs of China:
                        1- Bodhidharma (c. 470-543) of Shaolin, Henan, 2- Hui Ke, 3- Seng Zan, 4- Dao Xin, 5- Hong Jen, 6- Hui Neng of Baolin, Guangdong.

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                        • #42
                          I only observe that after watching several of the chi gung videos in the library section that buddhist chi gung looks very very similiar to the yogas I see taught around today- the one exception, and to me most important is that they appear linked together dynamically in shaolin videos, whereas the (ahem) really good yoga instructors around here don't seems to connect them at all. Further speculation is irrelevant, like my post. I apologize for interrupting your reverie.

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                          • #43
                            another worthless observation is that in Kabbalism, most of the excercises have been borrowed and modified from babylonian/egyptian and greek sources, Modified for use in understanding the self. unfortunately I was raised in the tradition, and only recently began exploring the truths given to the others.

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