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Thread: Shaolin Wahnam Institute Redux: Wong Kiew Kit

  1. #71
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    i'm glad the two of you have had the opportunity to better your health through martial arts practice, but what do you attribute the benefits to specifically?
    ------------------------
    here's a copy of people's commentary regarding WKK after viewing a video on youtube...

    he is my sigun^^ my sifu is kai uwe jettkandt^^ i'm so proud of it^^

    very nice, I believe he was about 65 years old at the time of filming.

    i cant wait to see wong kiew kit, im gonna go ireland and do a chi-kung course (invitation only) there. Its suppose to be one of the most advanced arts around and that only a few masters like him teach it in the world

    Wong Kiew Kit is like my Hero, i own many books of his, and i think his method is really immpreve. Great Vid Dude

    It's not just the forms,but ppl miss the internal force(qi)" ; )

    also don't forget that their are many defferent styles of hung gar that are not apart of the wong fei hung leanage. some are from hung hei goon or from lok ah choys other disciples.

    smooth, efficient, perfect control. so the man is not a fraud after all. a fraud would not be able to perform a set that well; only instruction from a real master can give someone that kind of perfection. that form is very near flawless.

    wow! awsome hungga sifu

    he also claims he can change the weather with his chi
    see a similarity anywhere? i mean, well, everyone putting him on such a high pedestal. don't you think that's slightly odd?

  2. #72
    It's not odd.

    You find this behavior in people who suffer from chronic pain or other chronic illness. Desperation leads to the sometimes very strong desire to find relief, and in that process, people grab onto anything that offers hope, sometimes, initially, convincing themselves that they've found a solution.

    It eventually passes once people discover that the new "magic therapy" really doesn't work. They then search out another one.

    AS for forum registration, I've disabled the email confirmation. All people who tried to register are "registered". Sorry for the problem; I've been having a lot of problems with my ISP for some reason. I should be moving this to a new server soon if they don't resolve the problem.
    Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

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  3. #73
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    u know, this wkk stuff is ridiculous. there is so much going on in this world that is more important then some guy teaching yogic exercises to sick people for obscene prices.

    those of you whove been with the wkk debate for awhile know talking to these people is pointless. THEY DONT EVEN KNOW WHAT REAL GUNG FU IS, how can they have anything logical to say? chi kung and shaolin gung fu are intimately tied together and cant be seperated, every video wkk posted is BS

    that should be enough, hes a decent scholar on MA but when u look at his form it is BS, that should be enough for any real practitioner.

    OBVIOUSLY his students are not that, and are obviously unwilling to go elsewhere to develope their skills/understanding


    so who cares
    "did you ask me to consider dick with you??" blooming tianshi lotus

  4. #74
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    i know... i've come across quite a few that exibit this behavior, "in my day," from one organization to the next. i get already....

    i'm just wondering if these people notice anything odd about their own behavior? (that's why the question was directed at them) and, if they don't, i'm attempting to suggest that the benefits these practicioners are seeing can and are generally gained through the practice of MA and/or qigong, not from any one person or teacher, which includes WKK.

    knowledge and growth are not a waste of time....
    Last edited by onesp1ng; 02-08-2008 at 03:16 AM.

  5. #75
    Mbyte is offline Registered Member: no custom title Registered Member
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    Hello Russbo forum,

    Wong Kiew Kit does seem quite puzzling. I would probably be similar in mind set to Maestros' first post on this thread. I have been reading books and reading through his questions and answers. Some of you here talk about that these people don't know real Kung fu. It may be an insult but I think all Kung fu is useless. Wong Kiew Kits talk about internal force aspects interest me though. Still I would think a MMA fighter would flatten any shoalin monk. There is all the history and so on shaolin but... doesn't seem usable. So for now lets just take Kung fu out of the picture. I have studied around different martial arts on concepts and Bruce Lee etc. I'm not new to martial arts. I would just like to share my views on Wong Kiew Kits Chi Kung.

    To anyone who has actually done the course they would know the most unbelievable thing to accept is the Chi Flow. I went to do a 12 week Chi Kung course (every Monday) just because it I was wondering if all the things were true. This was back 2005 when I was 16. I was the youngest person in the group. There was only 5 or 6 people. I remember the very first that entered my head when Joan said it was a standing meditation and we were suppose to let go. She explained that we would move. "WTF?" was what entered my head. I moved a bit the first class but I was just to sceptical to move for the rest of the classes. Maybe I was just falling off balance. I did 6 weeks of the 12. It was more 14 or 15 weeks because for some reason there was a lot of bank holidays. I did 6 classes. What we were being thought was the 8 brocades. My intention is to address the issues some people have brought up on this forum. I don't want to drag it all on with stories. Joan was teaching that class.

    I had not done any Chi Kung since that time I was just always wondering if it was real. I am a serious thinker, a philosopher. I was eager to find out if Chi Flow was as it was cooked up to be. I ended up thinking seriously about doing it because my back seemed to be getting worryingly bad. My lower spine seemed to be like a tooth ache type pain up the entire lower arch of my back. I would try and stretch it out but my antics made it worse in the end. I wouldn't be able to relax my back in the bed as it would cause pain. I would have to exaggerate the arch in my back to get relief. The same would happen while driving. I was seriously thinking that I would be a person the doctor would be telling me that my back was ****ed in a few years. I was only 18. I started doing Chi Kung again. I was pretty sure about how accurate my practice was so there would be no need to go back for another course. I would email Joan from time to time with inquires. I forgot to mention that I actually did a Chi kung course while Wong Kiew Kit was here in Ireland. I hadn't practices much so I didn't get any benefit from the course. My friend and I just went to see what other people were like. People cried, laughed, ran around in circles, one guy went into a seizure on the ground. I was a bit shocked that the Chi flow had such an affect. My friend was the same. It seemed not possible. We were thinking how people could be so deluded by a placebo or imagination for all those things to happen to them, especially the seizure. How could they bullshit themselves like that. I did that class when I was 18.

    This January I started to practice Chi Kung properly. Twice a day for months. Within a week I was doing Chi Flow movements as vigorous as those people in that Wong Kiew Kit class I did up in Dublin. I could understand why some people would move the way they did. It was a bit weird being on the other side of the table. I couldn't understand the seizure or the emotional stirring such as crying. The Chi Flow was basically a hip warming up type movement. It pushed my hips forward to such a severe degree that my back began to get sore. I was aware from the forums that it was of utmost importance not to resist the Chi Flow and just let go. Despite my back being ****ed up already I decided I would relax and let the Flow push my hips forward to the extent it wanted. This resulted with a lot of cracking in my lower back. I mean a lot cracking. Every session for months my back was cracking up and down and every which way. Some days my back would be a slight bit sensitive but it would pass. I noticed the tooth ache type pain reseeding within the first month. The pain now has almost gone but it's still present in a very subtle manner. The pain in my lower back would particularly be triggered when I would bend to pick something up repetitiously, like a lot of cut branches. I had to do such work and every time I stood up I was expecting the pain to shoot up my lower pain but it never did. There was definitely an endurance in my back that wasn't there before. The times you notice the benefits is when you expect a pain doing a typical pain causing movement and there is no pain. I would be a person that doesn't smile a lot. I remember telling my sister one day while in a discussion that I can't understand why people smile, it seems so fake. While doing the Chi Kung for those months I found myself smiling. Other days I would be cheerful then other days I would be normal. Of course that thought of "maybe I'm bullshitting myself" would wipe it off quite fast. Then again sometimes the thought wouldn't bother me. That's all I can say about the Chi Kung benefits though. I would have considered myself healthy but within the last two years I have got a sore back, tendinitis in my knee, tendinitis on my heel, structural chest problem, realised I was allergic to cats, sore fingers, slightly over weight, sexual inadequacy, and there probably a few more problems I can't remember. Problems treated, back problem, sore fingers (too much cracking), slight improvement in sexual inadequacy.

    Now you have the back story lets talk about the issues:

    Price, Self Labelling, Books, Chi Kung comparison, Deepening of skill, Why such dedication?, must do class can't learn from book (keep info uniform), Method of teaching

    Even though Joan may disagree with me on any of these, this is my opinion on the matter.

    Price

    I was shocked at the price for the 12 week course. It was probably about €300 - €350. I was also shocked at the price for Sifu Wong's course in Ireland again about €350. It does seem to be quite a price for what seems to be a very simple exercise. It's so simple in fact any problem you have is answered with "relax and let go" essentially. Any problem is a problem because your thinking. Why does this require a €350 price tag. In regards to Joans class I did when I was 16... Joan was travelling about 50km up to Ennis where I lived and then back down 50km every Monday evening. The Class was 2 hours long and even though I would send an email after the class I would aget a reply that night. In regards to Sifu Wong's class the man does come from Malaysia. It definitely should be worth his while travelling all over the place. Rent for the hall, food and expenses while in teaching and plane prices and a bit of profit to live. Everyone's biggest mistake is to assume someone makes a lot of money. You don't know the hidden expenses. I did a course with Joan recently just to make sure I was practising right. I wasn't looking forward to handing over €350. I had it in the wallet when I went down. I was shocked to find out that people that have done a beginners introduction course in Chi Kung only pay €80 for Chi Kung courses. This was the first time I heard of it. I am also guessing that this is hidden to possibly root out decided people where price isn't a concern. I could be wrong. I then found out that there is a class weekly only €8 (maybe €18... unsure now, I compared it to the Tae Kwon do price and it probably is €8) . The price at the start may seem pricey but apparently that's only for introduction. Sifu Wongs price remains the same €350.

    I talked to a women I was painting a house for. She said she did a course with Michael Doherty. He's a kind off half famous healing guy. Personally to her she said she felt like he was a con artist but she did Chi Kung with another in a healing package she paid for. There was Chakra cleansing and Chi Kung. Sifu Wong talks about what makes Chi Kung so effective. There is a few key elements. From the top of my head there is breathing, pattern, chi Flow, and smile from the heart. Lets assume this is a valid list. I compared these elements to her Chi Kung and all she did was stand up and breath. Compared to Sifu Wong's Chi Kung that seems a bit plain. However that came with a €2000 price tag. I was quite shocked. I though €350 was bad.

    Self Labelling

    I will admit that Joan being called International Sifu is a bit ridiculous. It does seem like a self title. Joan has practised 6 years. Sifu Wong is International Sifu Grand Master Wong Kiew Kit. This too seems a bit over board but the man is 64. Someone has to be a Grand Master. It's interesting that Sifu Wong writes articles for Kung fu magazine and has also featured on the cover. He has also has sections of the wikipedia page on the shaolin monostary edited; well he's referenced. Sifu Wong has also won some presidential chi Kung award in America. I tried to look it put and i found maybe one website. Sifu wong won the Chi Kung award and a female chinese researcher won the best research into Chi Kung. Sifu Wong admires her work and dedication. I think she's a Dr. expert in Cancer research and decided to research Chi Kung's affect on Cancer when a relation had Cancer and she couldn't help her despite her years of cancer research. Thats all I can really comment on the self title. I will say that I witnessed Sifu Wong dive roll across the ground and spring up to show the joys and benefits of Chi Kung. It was quite good. At the time I was practising how to roll across tarmac without pain. There was no lack of energy in the roll. My friend and I joked that after the class he went to a room to bare with the pain in private.

    Books

    Sifu Wong's book are well written. Everyone seems to agree on that. His books are just amazing. I have thought about philosophy and the likes for years and I can say Sifu Wong is very intelligent. He knows so much. It's just amazing how much psychological concepts he is aware of. His logic in the book are sound, there doesn't seem to be a problem with them. He says that in order to tell if his chi Kung is real that one should practice without doubt. To spend time to practice it you might as well practice properly as advised instead of totally wasting months of your time half practising. How you know if it is genuine is by the benefits you should experience after months of practice. The health of the teacher also. I spent three years not doing Chi Kung and when I did my back got better. I have tried to investigate it as best as possible but it's much easier do it yourself. It is true, to not follow this is because of doubt and ignorance to some degree. We all recognise this, we mightn't admit it. Maestro basically says the same thing in his first post. He won't train but gives advice to someone else that they should to cut out investigation and just do it.

    Chi Kung comparison

    I was only aware of Tai Chi But sifu Wongs Chi Kung was the first time I came across Chi Kung. Later I realised that Chi kung ws in shaolin teachings and etc. I wanted to compare the 8 bracades in wahnams Chi Kung to Other 8 bracades. I watched a lot of youtube videos and they're a lot of similarities. I won't go into detail but while wahnams one pattern may do two movements simultaneously another would do them separately. That was one example I found. Lifting the sky though was one of the hardest to compare. There was nothing to compare it with. Sifu wong swears by this pattern and yet there is nothing on the internet relatively close to it. there was break though. I found a word document with Chi Kung exercises. Most of them were unusual but one was called lifting the sky. The patter was slightly different but ultimately the same. He specified that the pattern was to circulate chi and it's not directed. The last step was to just stand for while after the pattern. not movement mentioned. So it's not totally made up.

    Deepening of skill

    I know I said we would leave Kung Fu out of this but this topic came to mind while typing. It may seem relevant to Chi kung but a greater point can be made in regard to Kung Fu. They talk about the deepening of the skill. The Chi Kung meditation is simple but it's all about deepening of the skill. To those of you like me, you will not have life changing experience during the first class. I still haven't had life changing experiences. I can see however their talk about the deepening of the skill. I could imagine a deeper state while meditating. They talk about a Chi Kung state of mind and I would think "it's hard to meditate while your standing and moving around". In regards to Kung Fu a lot of people seem to give out about Sifu Wongs shoddy Kung technicality, however his Internal force and chi kung state of mind seem very intriguing. In regards to the chi Kung state of mind a person doing chi kung is suppose to be in a Chi Kung state also while doing Kung Fu. A "CKSOM" (chi kung state of mind) I suppose to calm the nerves keeping a person in a relaxed state no matter how tense the fighting situation may be. The Kung Fu stances is reinforced by the internal force aspect. You may not believe internal force and neither do I really but I did play a game of mercy with a physically fit girl in one time and I beat her easily. I was slightly being masculine and showing off my strength in front of the ladies but it wasn't too serious. I then played mercy with a much thinner less masculine girl who did Tai Chi. I couldn't beat her in the game. There was this elastic type strength I just couldn't overcome. I could move her arms easily but she could beat me on stamina. I couldn't bring her to breaking point she would just bounce back. I tried many times but couldn't win. I gave up. This was met with teasing laughter. To me internal strength may be possible. Each movement has internal force reinforcement and a Chi Kung State of Mind. He also talks about internal force being controlled by the mind and include that with the CKSOM you can react at the speed of thought. I'll just clarify I don't like MMA training methods and all the Kung Fu talk sound kick ass. It's worth looking into, to my mind. Also another logicically sound piece would be that Chi Kung should heal the body then one can Do Kung Fu safely ad effectively without injury.

    Why Such dedication?

    This is gives common confusion amongst people. If I had severe back pain in which a doctor informed my I would be in a wheel chair within a year or two I would be indebted to that person if they thought me something so simple and yet curing my back problems. I can see why some of these people are so indebted. I suppose you could keep that in mind. It's hard to shake faith of a person who's incurable illness has been healed. Of course all cases we see of incurable illnesses being healed usually turn out to be false but I have came a across of a few cases.

    Don't practice from book

    This seems like another problem but it should be as strict as it is. It seems like a money racket in order to force people to do classes instead of follow the simple exercises in the book. The simplest of instruction some people can not follow. To be blunt people are idiots. You can tell a person in total detail on how to do something for an hour and when you ask the to do what you showed them they will do it totally wrong. A manual handling coarse is a good example. A teacher with weaknesses and students who can't follow instruction and people are going to leave with different methods of "lifting a box". People can't follow instruction on simply lifting a box. One reason why classes should be done, not for money as such but for those type of people that are hopeless by themselves. Another problem with global associations I recognised from Tae Kwon Do is how they try and get all the patterns uniform and practised properly by everyone from every country to ensure authenticity. The same probably applies to Chi Kung. They don't want 50 versions of 8 bracades sprouting from Chi Kung and it slowly being diluted and misinterpreted over time. That makes sense to me.

    Method of teaching

    This is probably the most controversial aspect. Typically you learn Chi Kung on a course. It could be a day course or it could be a a few weeks once; one day a week. You are thought what ever you are thought and then you practice by yourself as you have learned everything needed to practice by yourself. As you probably have known before and I did not know until a few weeks ago, you can do classes and the price is reduced for future courses done apart from Sifu Wongs. The Kung Fu classes however are more controversial. I haven't done a course but how can you learn Kung Fu from a day course??? I looked at the parts of the course and what exactly is thought throughout the course. I haven't looked too much into but the practice stances near the beginning. I couldn't be arsed to try and explain the rest. It just doesn't seem possible to do a course and to then be proficient in self defence. Not that you should be proficient at self defence, you are probably supposed to practice at home. There are also classes but again How could the teachers of that class have learned Kung Fu from courses. It seems that the Kung Fu itself seems very weak in technicality but it may possibly work a lot more on the forgotten deeper aspects that would improve any Kung Fu. It's hard know. I remember one of the Wahnam member complaining to a forum member that he was insulting their Kung Fu (I think, something was insulted, it's hard not to insult something in the forums) he said the forums was a kwoon (little did I know that's another word for Dojo, who knew!) It says at the top the forum that it's a virtual kwoon. He said if you were to say in a kwoon you would get your ass handed to you. He implied a fight. Personally I think he wouldn't be able to hand any ass to any one. I'd love to be made an example though just to see if I can be beaten. The method of teaching seems to work for chi kung but I would have my doubts about the Kung Fu. The first thing people mostly hear about Kung Fu is how vast it is, in terms of patterns. I might do a course some time.

    One more thing I want touch on. I think the wahnam forums is totally tight arsed. I don't care they read this, some people on that forum are absolutely defensive. There is no leeway with some of them. Their way or no way. However in regard to that.. some would say that their Kung Fu is poor but if their Kung Fu purely improves deeper aspects of the Kung Fu state of mind then technically you shouldn't give out about the Kung fu being poor because it focuses on something that other Kung fu doesn't believe in or practice. So it may appear they are defensive. Even though I still think they are too tight for a group of people who are suppose to be joyous. I believe that some people don't go on the forums who do wahnam due to this very fact. I saw a video of a monkey technique for ground fighting. Most MMA would be on their back while this technique was on your side and you could pivot on your hip so your feet are always facing a circling opponent. This was probably the best thing I've seen from the videos. There is a video from the Scottish kung fu wahnam group which shows some tasty technical wing chun type moves. It's odd. The videos in the Kung Fu class look as plain as anything, then you hear them talk about dragon flip sweeping kick on the forums as if they know thousands of moves. How could they learn so much from a course? One could of course say they do ordinary Kung Fu classes as well.

    One more thing.. Sifu Wong is teaching a Wing Chun Course. Supposedly he was thought Wing Chun from a rare linage of the Wing Chun linages. There is the Yip Man linage and then Sifu Wong supposedly learn from another famous linage but has apparently almost died out. He is teaching a Wing Chun Course in Canada. I can't see how a one day possibly two day course can teach Wing Chun especially a different form to most Wing Chun. It doesn't seem possible.
    Last edited by Mbyte; 09-11-2009 at 05:15 PM.

  6. #76
    He and I had had an interesting exchange about treating cancer, many years ago.

    You can find it in the Forum Archive. (the old forum)
    Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

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  7. #77
    Mbyte is offline Registered Member: no custom title Registered Member
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    You'd have to link that because i can barely find it my way around this site. It's probably gone.

  8. #78
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    thanks for sharing.

    It was probably about €300 - €350. I was also shocked at the price for Sifu Wong's course in Ireland again about €350. It does seem to be quite a price for what seems to be a very simple exercise. It's so simple in fact any
    problem you have is answered with "relax and let go" essentially. Any problem
    is a problem because your thinking. Why does this require a €350 price tag.
    i think it's a crime. paying that much for something someone can teach you for free in a park on the weekends is absurd. but, in principle, what they're saying isn't wrong necessarily. the problem is telling people what they're supposed to do and not to doubt. people are free to do what they want. it's not about controlling people.

    I will say that I witnessed Sifu Wong dive roll across the ground and spring up to show the joys and benefits of Chi Kung. It was quite good. At the time I was practising how to roll across tarmac without pain. There was no lack of energy in the roll. My friend and I joked that after the class he went to a room to bare with the pain in private.
    qigong rolls? lol

    basically it's possible to roll on anything as long as your body is soft enough and your using proper technique. if your body is hard, it hurts. period.

    it's a benefit, yeah, but ultimately it just comes from training for softness.

    以柔克刚

    Also another logicically sound piece would be that Chi Kung should heal the body then one can Do Kung Fu safely ad effectively without injury.
    i agree; just, why divide 'em? everything is everything, no? they're really the same.

    Sifu Wong is International Sifu Grand Master Wong Kiew Kit.
    至人无已, 神人无功, 贤任无名.

    You can tell a person in total detail on how to do something for an hour and when you ask the to do what you showed them they will do it totally wrong.
    people have to want to do it for themselves. then they acquire the proper skills, mentality, etc. which is why you can ask them to do it, even desire it yourself, but it just won't happen. it happens when the philosophies are absorded, the skills trained, and when the time is right.

    it's interesting that you chose to do this. did you have any other motivations? and why do you thing qi flow is so hard to accept? just curious. perhaps it's the definitions you're confused over a bit.
    Last edited by onesp1ng; 09-12-2009 at 03:49 PM.

  9. #79
    You'll find it in here: http://forumarchive.russbo.com/cgi-b...cus/discus.cgi

    Forum Archive. In the menu. Sorry the site is so big and complicated. there's twelve years plus of shit in here.
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