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  • From Fox News:

    MADRID, Spain — At least 190 people were killed and 1,240 wounded Thursday after 10 bombs rocked three Madrid train stations during the height of the morning rush hour, just three days before Spain's general elections.



    "This is mass murder," said a somber Prime Minister Jose Maria Aznar (search) after an emergency Cabinet meeting, at which he vowed to hunt down the attackers and said he would not negotiate with the ETA (search) Basque separatist terror group, which is suspected of being behind the attacks.

    "No negotiation is possible or desirable with these assassins who so many times have sown death all around Spain," Aznar said.

    Police are looking for at least two people seen jumping on and off one of the trains at a station in Madrid. Police believe these individuals could have been planting the bombs.

    As many as three more explosive devices were found in backpacks on the trains by police who defused them, Sky News reported.

    The bombers used titadine (search), a kind of compressed dynamite also found in a bomb-laden van intercepted last month as it headed for Madrid, a source at Aznar's office said, speaking on condition of anonymity. Officials blamed ETA then, too.

    Francisco Javier Ruperez, Spanish ambassador to the United States, told Fox News on Thursday that he has "no doubt" that the ETA was behind the attacks.

    Ruperez, who was kidnapped by ETA in 1979, said there is "no smoking gun" linking Al Qaeda with ETA. "At the end of the day all of them tend to share the same sympathies ... the same aims," he said of terrorist organizations.

    But a U.S. intelligence official, speaking on condition of anonymity, said, "It's too early to tell. We're not ruling anything out."

    Mansoor Ijaz, a foreign affairs analyst for Fox News, said the attacks have all of the hallmarks of Al Qaeda, which now appears to be "joining hands with local terrorists."

    "This represents a dangerous mutated version of what Al Qaeda has been doing in other parts of the world ... hitting three simultaneous targets, not necessarily in the same city but in the same area, with multiple explosions at each location."

    Ijaz said Thursday's bombings are part of "an emerging pattern," citing the recent bombings in Iraq during the Shiite holiday and just before the Iraqi constitution was signed. He also noted that Spain is an American ally and about to hold an election.

    Spanish officials called it the deadliest attack ever by ETA, but Arnold Otegi, leader of Batasuna (search), an outlawed Basque party linked to the armed separatist group, denied it was behind the blasts and suggested "Arab resistance" elements were responsible.

    Otegi told Radio Popular in San Sebastian that ETA always phones in warnings before it attacks and the interior minister said there was no warning before Thursday's explosions.

    "The modus operandi, the high number of victims and the way it was carried out make me think ... it may have been an operative cell from the Arab resistance," Otegi said.
    Attached Files
    Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

    "You're just a jaded cynical mother****er...." Jeffpeg

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    • Thats some scarey stuff. I just hope they catch whomever did this.
      practice wu de

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      • i told you before what islamic law says about killing innocent and non-combatant people doc "if you kill one person it is as if you have killed the whole human race". These people dont give a damnm about Islamic law and politics is their "law". I hope whoever did it gets caught and administered justice

        dave
        simple and natural is my method,
        true and sincere is my principle --Tse Sigung

        Comment


        • But these people, Al Queada, or however you spell it, seem to get their strength and their sense of righteousness, from Islamic law.
          Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

          "You're just a jaded cynical mother****er...." Jeffpeg

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          • the situation

            Of course they are committing acts with a sense of righteousness. It seems to me that these al Qaeda people were taught by Moslem Jerry Falwells.

            But we must remember that there are millions of Moslems out there that take an Anne Lammont (sp) approach to the Quran. We must remember that it all comes down to interpritation and the situation of an individual's environment.
            Last edited by Pujo; 03-12-2004, 02:16 AM.

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            • must...keep...my lid on....

              Comment


              • Granted. But why is it that we almost never hear of Christians or Buddhists, or Jews for that matter, committing atrocious acts of mass murder, of innocent people, I might add, and if they did, why do they not attribute their actions to a cause somehow associated with the bible or the Torah?
                Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

                "You're just a jaded cynical mother****er...." Jeffpeg

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                • what about the ethnic cleansing of the aborignal people? Or the native americans? Or the tibetans? Or what about South Africa? What about in South America? and so on.... that wasnt done by muslims. Not even getting in to the Israel thing again.

                  Im not wanting to turn this in to a tit-for-tat argument as i think we are above that (hope we are anyway). Quite simply - terrorism is wrong. No matter how its "justified" by people. If you cant accept that this is the Islamic view on this also, then i dont know what else i can say. I have linked a few good articles that outline what traditional (as well as contemporary) islamic law classes as terrorism, as well as some that show how this modern day "jihadi" culture came about. Another recent one about Saudi and Wahabbism is here.

                  I have never felt so hated as i have here
                  dave
                  simple and natural is my method,
                  true and sincere is my principle --Tse Sigung

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                  • Cheers for fundamentalism.

                    Comment


                    • what about the ethnic cleansing of the aborignal people? Or the native americans? Or the tibetans? Or what about South Africa? What about in South America?

                      Name one instance in which ethnic cleansing was done, with support of readings or beliefs from the bible or Torah.

                      Oh, and we love you Dave. We really do. But, you're our only Muslim, so, we have to talk to you about these things. (By all means, don't take it personally).
                      Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

                      "You're just a jaded cynical mother****er...." Jeffpeg

                      (more comments in my User Profile)
                      russbo.com


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                      • Name one instance where ethnic cleansing was done with authentic readings from Quran and Sunnah? Not just some sectarian reading but authentic consensus from all the qualified scholars of islamic law? Even after Muhammad died there was a sect called the Khwarji who basically were extremists and went around killing muslims who were not of their sect. This is partly where the orthodoxy developed their definition of what terrorism is. Again this was repeated when the Wahabbi sect killed people in Mecca, Medina and also Kerbala (which is where Muhammads grandson and his remaining family was massacred too). These are 3 of the holiest areas in Islam yet the army of Saud and their Wahabbi sect basically butchered everyone around there until they controlled the whole "hijaz" area (as they originally came from a barren province far away from the shrines).

                        This is why there are so many against Wahhabism. Add to that the fact that they selectively use quotes/teachings from scholars from the middle ages and Abdul Wahab himself, and you get a very one sided view of islamic thought - basically taking away 1400 years worth of development and discourse. If you read the NY Times article above you would get some idea of what that is like. Mix that in with politics, the post-colonisation depression of the middle east, as well as hatred against the political and otherwise support of Israel by the US (in general), not forgetting Bosnia, Chechneya and so on and you can see why some people may be pissed off.

                        But see, for me as a Muslim its hard to reconcile this anger and hatred against others with what i have been taught and am reading about further. I mean even looking at one of the first revealed chapters of Quran:

                        [103]
                        1. By the passing of Time through the Ages,
                        2. Verily Man is in loss,
                        3. Except such as those who have Faith, and do righteous deeds, and join together in the mutual teaching of Truth, and of Patience and Constancy.
                        Basically i cant reconcile their understanding at all when it comes to this. There are many other verses, which are generally right beside the ones the extremists use as "proof" for what they are doing that talk about upholding contracts with non-muslim communities, seek peace if they incline to peace and so on. If you like i can make a post so you can see what i mean? That way maybe you can see how people are playing sneeky games with all of this?

                        Thats without even getting in to the complexities of Islamic Law regarding "jihad". I mean one of the first things is that an offensive "jihad" can only be called for by a Caliph. We have not had a Muslim Caliph since the Ottoman empire ended in 1924. Even then they were hardly "guided" by Islam and the whole system had been corrupted for hundreds of years. Now, defensive "jihad", which is struggling to defend your freedom to follow your belief and not be oppressed is something that does not need a Caliph to call for. So these extremists try to wriggle around by saying that their jihad is defensive, helping the "ummah" (islamic brotherhood) against oppression and so on. I mean even bin Laden mentions "our brothers in palestine" and also chechneya and so on. The funny thing being that when the Arab "mujahid" arrived in Bosnia they made everything worse than it already was and tried to spread their extremist beleifs. The same with Afghanistan too which is why it has turned in to an utter ****hole right now. The same now with Iraq. I know plenty of Iraqis and it was basically a secular country as Saddam was not religious at all. Look up the background of the Baathist movement and you will see it was started by a Christian anyway! It was only when the Gulf War started that the Iraqi flag had the "Allahu Akbar" appear on it (meaning "God is Great").

                        Anyway im starting to rant but just letting you know my thoughts. But youre right - there is a "war". But its happening right now inside the Islamic community and about Islam itself! These fundie types have managed to leech so much control over production of books and so on as well as "sponsoring" mosque building and libraries and even scholars and such. Its so scary!

                        dogchow: hey man its cool if you dont like islam. You have every right to be pissed off and making choices is the whole reason we are here. "Lakum deenukum waliya deen" - to you your way and to me mine. Just hope it wont stop us from discussing and working thru stuffs

                        dave
                        Last edited by dave; 03-12-2004, 11:04 PM.
                        simple and natural is my method,
                        true and sincere is my principle --Tse Sigung

                        Comment


                        • Name one instance where ethnic cleansing was done with authentic readings from Quran and Sunnah?
                          From MSNBC news:

                          Among the tantalizing hints that Osama bin Laden's terrorist group might be involved were the discovery of detonators and an Arabic-language cassette with Quranic verses in a stolen van outside Madrid and the fact that the attack occurred exactly 2 1/2 years — and 911 days — after al-Qaida carried out the Sept. 11, 2001, terror attacks in the United States. The infamous attacks on the World Trade Center and Pentagon using four hijacked airliners are known around the world by the shorthand reference "9-11."

                          Why is the Koran involved?

                          Again, name one instance in the past one hundred years, where the bible or the Torah has been associated with terrorism or ethnic cleansing.

                          Good response anyway Dave. And, we all still love you.
                          Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

                          "You're just a jaded cynical mother****er...." Jeffpeg

                          (more comments in my User Profile)
                          russbo.com


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                          • dave- its all good, man, actually ive been quiet because i havent had much opportunity to get online lately.

                            dont worry about us not being able to discuss stuff, man, trust me you are just fine. i really just dont like to stay on the subject of israel vs non-jewish middle-east or really "fundamentalist" vs whatever else kind of Islam, because really i think people expect more of me than i'm willing to give. dont forget that i went on that rant in response to Dao's comments which i thought just displayed a certain lack of intelligence on the subject. nothing about him, or others, as human beings and intellectuals, i mean ive seen some of his posts on other threads here and they've left me just completely dumfounded like for example how much he knows about internal systems.

                            i simply have my opinions on some things, especially the middle east thing, and feel that the arguements presented before me are often rediculous either to the point where i am at a lack of word to reply or just i get mad to read it in the first place. it does not make me right or wrong- it just makes me decided. the truth is, i think everyone here (and i mean EVERYONE) just has their opinions and is here not to learn but to teach in the first place. i think some people's opinions are more likely to be correct than others and that's that. really i think thats how 99.9999% of people think, especialy those who claim not to.

                            anyway, having said that heres my two cents on this recent stuff-

                            i am well aware of how wahabi Islam brainwashes people, but you really gota kinda look around you man. that sect of Islam is not the only population that harbors that kind of hatred to non-muslims. think about it this way: why have they been so successful in reaching adults in other non-wahabi areas? are the palestinians wahabi muslims? are the Iranians wahabi's? was saddam hussein? wahabbiism, in my own STILL relatively uneducated and scrutinable opinion, built its power and influence on an already-existent anger and hatred towards non-muslims and even certain muslims.

                            really i dont want to get into the "blame the worlds problems on Islam" game because not only is Islam not the only reason for most of these problems but i also know what it feels like when people blame your ethnicity for things its not responsible for. BUT, and you guys know me enough to expect an anti-apologetic statement- you simply cant ignore the fact that of the three major monotheistic religions, Islam is the only one being used (whether it be justified or not it simply dosent matter really) today to feul global terrorism. is it a right or wrong interpretation of islam? i dont know- i'm not a muslim. but this is what i do know about interpretations of religion. people, almost entirely, tend to do some of the following things:

                            1- interpret their or any other religion in a way that makes it seem nice (peaceful, tolerant, etc.)
                            2- '' '' '' '' '' '' '' '' '' '' '' '' '' ''' '' '' '' '' '' '' '' '' '' '' ' '' '' '' '' '' '' makes it seem negative (warhungry, racist, etc.)

                            what do these things have in common? people will do what they need to in order to push their agenda. and yes, making a religion sound too peaceful IS an agenda. dont forget that the basic social occurence, especially behind the monotheistic faiths, is that you end up with a group that thinks theyre doing something right where everyone else is wrong.


                            look for example at Hinduism- specifically, the Mahabarata. this thing, in a nutshell, is a justification for war. you can do all the metaphorical ejaculation that you want, but really the whole thing is one guy explaining to another why its okay for him to go to war and slaughter his own family. yet, hindus are nowhere near as notorious in global terrorism today as muslims. (note, im not mentioning civil wars between hindus and muslims. i m talking specifically about the kind of terrorism which i feel has been over-attributed to wahabbiism).


                            so, where am i getting at? look at this, for example:

                            Not just some sectarian reading but authentic consensus from all the qualified scholars of islamic law?

                            look, like it or not, wahabiism is Islam. even if they are not, theres plenty of other muslims in the world that justify what we call terrorism based on religious scripture. Khumeini of Iran is a good example. other good examples...well...i dont really need to go into sermons on Arab telivision. so, really what do you mean by "authentic consenses...islamic law". it's almost as if you are implying going to a Taoist preist and tell them how to practice Taoism. what is an authentic Taoist preist? (for ****s and giggles, is Shi Yan Ming the Wahabi of Shaolin?)

                            who are these people that are supposed to be "all the qualified scholars"?


                            anyway, i think you guys get what im trying to say- im tired so maybe i have miswritten what i want to write...anyway, cya next time

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                            • Why is the Koran involved?
                              Because quoting Quran in a muslim environment raises their "legitimacy" and air of "authority". Remember that really there is no "politics" so everything is based on "theolotics". Thats why everyone - Saddam, Saudi, bin Laden and all stoke the flames of the people by calling for "Jihad" instead of just fighting. They all were promoting their own ends and were against each others ideals.

                              Also remember that throughout Islamic history there has been hundreds of different schools of thought, much like you get protestant and catholic, presbiterian (however its spelled) and so on in Christianity. Even famous philosophers/scientists/doctors from the middle ages such as Avicenna and Averroes (Ibn Sina and Ibn Rushd in Arabic respectively) were muslim scholars, traditionally trained in classical jurispudence and science. Dont know if you have come across them but they are very interesting fellows.

                              i really just dont like to stay on the subject of israel vs non-jewish middle-east or really "fundamentalist" vs whatever else kind of Islam, because really i think people expect more of me than i'm willing to give.
                              Same. I am more interested in finding out about each others thoughts without arguing and coming to a common purpose, but thats just me. Hence why i have talked with Lipster and some other Jewish people i know about Judaism a bit and other systems too.

                              i think everyone here (and i mean EVERYONE) just has their opinions and is here not to learn but to teach in the first place.
                              Well the whole reason i posted was to tell people what i know/think, so for me thats kinda obvious

                              i am well aware of how wahabi Islam brainwashes people, but you really gota kinda look around you man. that sect of Islam is not the only population that harbors that kind of hatred to non-muslims.
                              For sure. But in the last 30 years i would say they are probably the biggest instigators. Of course then we also have people like the Muslim Brotherhood, Jamaat-e-Islami and all these other reactionary groups that sprung up against colonization and so on. They are still going today. But this has a lot to do with Arab (or elsewheres) nationalism. Believe me i have looked around a lot which is why like i said we are fighting our own "war" inside the islamic community. In the past we had such people as Muhammad Abuduh, Muhamad al-Ghazali and Jamal al-Din al-Afghani, many great scholars who were concerned with making Islam fit in to the modern situations the muslims faced.

                              It seems that things are starting to take shape now though. We have the likes of Khaled Abou el Fadl, Omid Safi, Tariq Ramadan, Akbar Ahmed, Fazlur Rahman, Seyyed Hossein Nasr, William Chittick, Hamza Yusuf... heaps of Islamic scholars are speaking out about this, and many many others are too such as American Muslim and others.. Its becoming a very interesting time for us all.

                              but this is what i do know about interpretations of religion. people, almost entirely, tend to do some of the following things:
                              Actually i agree 100% with what you say The hardest part is to stay in the middle, which is what i am trying to do in regards to my Islam. Yes wars were fought - Muhammads history testifies clearly to this as does Quran itself (as its linked to Muhammads struggle to establish Islam). But that doesnt mean im going to sit around and let people say my religion is a blood-thirsty crazy entity which turns people in to raving lunatics does it?

                              look, like it or not, wahabiism is Islam. even if they are not, theres plenty of other muslims in the world that justify what we call terrorism based on religious scripture. Khumeini of Iran is a good example. other good examples...well...i dont really need to go into sermons on Arab telivision. so, really what do you mean by "authentic consenses...islamic law".
                              Oh, i can accept Wahabbism is a sect of Islam, even though i am against it. Many cant. Many muslims dont believe that any muslim could do such horrible things but im not one of those or that naive. Like i said, im not wanting this to become a pissing match, bin Laden has as much to do with Islam asthe IRA have to do with the Pope (and is the Pope a Catholic? ). Khomeni is a whole other kettle of fish. Also remember that it was the USA that instigated the Shah and so on which led to the revolution itself. Nowadays they are going more towards Khatami and even he is struggling with those powr hungry "clerics". Considering there is meant to be no "priest" class in Islam they have sure kicked up a lot of sh|t huh?

                              As far as sermons on arab TV and such - you cannot tlak about them without also acknowledging the very area you dont want to talk about, as well as colonialism by the British, French and so on, as well as the blockade against Iraq by the US and all that stuff that people argue about. Everything is all connected so like i said trying to argue tit for tat and taking little pot shots here and there doesnt do anyone any good.

                              dave
                              simple and natural is my method,
                              true and sincere is my principle --Tse Sigung

                              Comment


                              • Again, my point on the Arab's inability to separate church and state. From Time magazine:

                                Far from the anticipated rapturous welcome, the U.S. mission in Iraq has been confounded by Grand Ayatollah Ali Sistani, the most influential spiritual leader among Iraq's Shiite Muslim majority. Sistani managed to scrap two U.S. transition plans and has now made clear that he wants the interim constitution signed last Monday amended before it takes effect on June 30, to eliminate the de facto veto power it grants the Kurdish minority over a permanent constitution. Sistani did, however, advise his supporters on the Iraqi Governing Council to sign the document, because failure to do so would have provoked a crisis that could delay the July 1 hand-over of power by the U.S. And Sistani and the Shiites are so keen to see the U.S. out that they're willing to deal with the Kurdish veto later.

                                Sistani has destroyed two attempts at creating a constitution in Iraq, and now he interferes with the third one.

                                He's only a religious leader. Why doesn't he just proselytize and chase little boys like ours do?

                                And why do the people follow him for "legal advice" instead of just spiritual education?

                                I have my answers. You don't want to hear them.
                                Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

                                "You're just a jaded cynical mother****er...." Jeffpeg

                                (more comments in my User Profile)
                                russbo.com


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