proving existence of the mind(not thebrain)

[blooming tianshi lotus]

There's that reoccurring thought thing causing problems for ppl again............. anyone else noticing that??


Considering everyone has individual language and logic, beliefs and so on , ppl disaggree and misunderstand. No surprise here though

happy thinking folks......... I'm off to empty my mind


BL

[zachsan]

well, no. if something in unclear, people try to clarify what they mean. it's sort of the point of a message board. conversation.

silly us, thinking. etc.

[daodejing]

[QUOTE=zachsan]on this board dao the phrase "we create our own reality, that's all" needs a hell of a lot of clarification. i clicked "agree" to your previous post since i think the concept of dualism is a kind of delusion... but upon reflection i have no idea if that's what you actually meant at all.
__________________QUOTE]


What I mean is this. Reality, in my opinion, is the sum total of what we experience of life. For someone who is delusional, there reality may differ significantly from yours. If we consider two people living in the same town, seeing the same things every day, but one is a buddhist monk who meditates frequently, and the other a father of three children who is always stressed about work, these two people live in very different worlds.

If you begin to believe in other realms, as far as your mind is concerned, there will be other realms. This is what I meant by dualist philosophy leading to mental illness, if you beleive things are seperate, and proceed to tell yourself "this is different from that" etc, then you will know only how seperate things are.

Now, when I say "if you beleive in other realms there will be other realms" I'm not saying those other realms will exist to other people, but the will exist to you. Hence, dualism usually leads to delusions and judgemental thinking which tends to get in the way of any sort of lasting happiness.

[zachsan]

What I mean is this. Reality, in my opinion, is the sum total of what we experience of life. For someone who is delusional, there reality may differ significantly from yours.

well that's exactly who a delusional person is, someone who doesn't base their interpretation of "reality" on the sum of their experience. delusional beliefs are based on something else and are adhered to despite overwhelming evidence. maybe in a poetic sense the delusional person is living in a different world than i am... but only in the poetic sense. it's more practical to say that they're living in the same world, with a (voluntarily) impaired ability to make sense of it.

If you begin to believe in other realms, as far as your mind is concerned, there will be other realms.

.........in your mind. this is the same as saying "if you like the way cereal tastes, then as far as taste is concerned, you like cereal". i don't really see the point...

Hence, dualism usually leads to delusions and judgemental thinking which tends to get in the way of any sort of lasting happiness.

on the contrary, the very way to avoid delusion is to think judgementally about the world around you. i have to make the judgment that if i jump, i will come back down, in order to avoid the delusion that i can fly.

[LeiYunFat]

well that's exactly who a delusional person is, someone who doesn't base their interpretation of "reality" on the sum of their experience. delusional beliefs are based on something else and are adhered to despite overwhelming evidence. maybe in a poetic sense the delusional person is living in a different world than i am... but only in the poetic sense. it's more practical to say that they're living in the same world, with a (voluntarily) impaired ability to make sense of it.

Right, but to them to completely believe their delusions, they have to REALLY believe it. If some guy thinks he is a bird, when you pull at his armpit hairs, he has to really think you are pulling out his feathers. This is his reality. He physically lives in the same world as you or I, but reality doesn't end at what the body feels. It is how the mind interprets it.

...in your mind. this is the same as saying "if you like the way cereal tastes, then as far as taste is concerned, you like cereal". i don't really see the point...

The point is, no one can prove it besides you. If you honestly like that cereal, there isn't much that will stop you from liking that cereal. There can't physically be something to refute that you like that cereal. Nothing can tell you you don't like that cereal besides yourself. And since we have no sure method of establishing the existence of other realms, then only you can come to the conclusion to believe it, disbelieve it, or ignore it. If you believe it, then it is there. If you don't, it's not. If you ignore it, then it doesn't matter to you if it's there or not. Blah, blah, blah. This ties in with the existence of God and the Devil and all that stuff. Because ultimately, it comes down to you who makes you reality. Someone tripping out on LSD or shrooms would say their reality is filled with being cold and burning; there would be nothing you could do to disprove that. If that fan is hurting them or if the lamp keeps getting brighter, then that is what they believe, there is nothing you can do to change that, besides trick them into believing something else.

on the contrary, the very way to avoid delusion is to think judgementally about the world around you. i have to make the judgment that if i jump, i will come back down, in order to avoid the delusion that i can fly.

Yep. But the point of that statement was that being judgemental gets in the way of being happy. That is another can of worms.

[blooming tianshi lotus]

Judgement is just another form of thought. Thought is a product of the mind. The mind gets in the way of the happiness.


What happens when you forget you had a problem????

[Steve]

....
What happens when you forget you had a problem????

You forgot?

[LeiYunFat]

You'd remember it sometime down the road and by then, it would hve grown and mutated into something nasty. Either that or you would remember how sad that problem was, and you would get OWNED.

Like if you had a brain tumor.

[blooming tianshi lotus]

Either that or because it was no longer a problem you'd probably just have sorted it out or learnt to live with it and be happy despite that thing you can't change. ...........or here's an idea.......... go on a diet, take some exercise, see an optomitrist and loose the jerk in place of someone who doesn't even want to spray himself in your eye !!



wah wah wah .......... I've got a brain tumor ......... my leg just fell off....... I'm hungry........ I can't get a girlfriend........ and now ; I'm going to feel shitty aswell!!!!

Nice philosophy on that one, but I like to lean towards the "shit happens move on" myself ! Unjustifiable satisfaction ....That'll f*ck em!


For more case studies similar : check out that serenity prayer those catholics are selling. Funny sense in that passage.

Lotus

[zachsan]

...reality doesn't end at what the body feels. It is how the mind interprets it.

no, reality is reality, and how the mind interprets it is simply how the mind interprets it. this is a lot like descartes. you and dao are basically saying "one's reality is the sum of one's beliefs, and therefore, one's beliefs determine one's reality". this is cogent but pointless unless you have already defined reality as simply the sum of one's beliefs. to me, the word "reality" is useless unless it implies something objective and shared.

or what you could be saying is "one's reality is the sum of one's experience, and therefore, one's experience determines one's reality". this makes more sense, but again, it's pointless. what's the point of using the word "reality" unless you want to imply objectivity? why not just say "experience" (or "belief") and leave it at that?

i would say, "reality is that from which one draws his experience, and experience is that upon which one bases his beliefs; therefore, one's beliefs are based on reality". but not delusional people.

Yep. But the point of that statement was that being judgemental gets in the way of being happy. That is another can of worms.

indeed it is... but i'm of the general opinion that the human mind is capable of being happy in the face of reality. at the risk of absurd redundancy, delusional people have mental problems.

Judgement is just another form of thought. Thought is a product of the mind. The mind gets in the way of the happiness.

...she writes from her computer in australia.

[blooming tianshi lotus]

Or China or Nz or hongkong or where ever else the paths takes me.

The reality is that you forgot something and at the end of the day it all m4eans nothing . Happiness is found when you loose the human mind and not it Imo , and everyone who forgot they are only living and acting as a human for a time is the delusion contingent.

Strangely......... the Zach-man makes some sense .


BL

[Fa Hui]

I can't help but to chime in here.

I always saw as if there were things out there. There is a reality, however I only experience my interpretation of it. What's funny is that most Chan ppl believe they can have this sort of experience through some sort of meditation that they can see things totally objective, while this is impossible there is a point when the mind does not cling to it's desires.

You'll always have desire, it's the animal in you. The human in you can chose to cling to them. However, it eventually can get too complicated (or too simple) if you try to think about it.

Thought is an interesting thing as well. It is a very coarse way for the brain to operate, and at certain waves of brain activity, the brain stops thinking. Trust me I've done it in meditation.

[blooming tianshi lotus]

I couldn't agree more. It is coarse and it is impossible .......unless you plan to meditate yourself to death.

[shaolinstylee]

[QUOTE=Fa Hui]I can't help but to chime in here.

It's all good

You'll always have desire, it's the animal in you. The human in you can chose to cling to them. However, it eventually can get too complicated (or too simple) if you try to think about it.

[QUOTE]
I think someone may be on to something here.......



This is just how I think...
plus some snow and things..........

[daodejing]

Z, to clarify I was defining reality as the sum total of sensory experience.

Frankly, this is all going a bit further than I'd like to roll with it.

Just be. And don't forget to breathe.