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Muscles and strenght for fighting efficiency(not for sowing off on the beach!)

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  • #91
    Originally posted by zachsan
    ...you are going to need some evidence to back that up. the appearance of large muscles doesn't indicate that the muscles are being unconsciously tensed, but simply that the muscles in their relaxed state are large.

    yep...also that appearance of large muscles can be because of low body fat.
    Whatever doesn't kill me had better be able to run damn fast.

    "You are one of the most self-deluded immature idiots I've come across here for a time..." —Blooming T. Lotus

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    • #92
      Tout a fait vrai chere madame.
      Vos blessures sont impressionantes,je me dois d'avouer que votre demonstration a du faire bon effet!
      Vous etes une tres charmante guerriere.
      The East? The West?

      Men and Women, that's all...

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      • #93
        for the sake of friendly debate...

        Guyton’s Physiology (does at least accept that muscle tone is the residual contraction in the relaxed muscle.) “Even when muscles are at rest, a certain amount of tautness usually remains. This is called muscle tone. Since skeletal muscle fibers do not contract without an actual action potential to stimulate the fibers except in certain pathological conditions, skeletal muscle tone results entirely from nerve impulses coming from the spinal cord. These in turn are controlled partly by impulses transmitted from the brain to the appropriate anterior motoneurons and partly by impulses that originate in muscle spindles located in the muscle itself.”

        Structure & Function of the Human Body, Memmler & Wood: “Muscle tone refers to a partially contracted state of the muscles which is normal even though the muscles may not be in use at the time. The maintenance of this tone or tonus is due to the action of the nervous system, and its effect is to keep the muscles in a constant state of readiness for action.”

        And finally, Fundamentals of Neurophysiology by Schmidt: “Summation of the twitches of many fibers, excited asynchronously at low frequencies up to 5/s, generates a total force that does not fluctuate very much, with an amplitude that must be approximately proportional to the average frequency of excitation.The ‘background’ tension produced in this way by summation of the twitches of many fibers is called tone. All the muscles in a living organism possess such tone. Even in a relaxed limb, the motor nerves are activated at low frequency.” So it gets better, but the full picture is very hard to find.
        "Life is a run. In attack we run, in defense we run. When you can no longer run, time to die" - Shichiroji "Seven samurai"

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        • #94
          Comments like master splinter's and Maestro's make me .

          - ms, what about a male gymnast? They're pretty musclebound and way more flexible than I'll ever be.

          - Bear in mind that weightlifting doesn't equal bodybuilding. Bodybuilders are a small subset of people who lift weights. Check out powerlifting or Olympic lifting for example. Look at Olympic lifters in the lighter weight classes - they most certainly do not look like bodybuilders.

          - Bodybuilding (as someone said) is difficult and requires strict lifting and eating regimes that are beyond the average punter.

          - your comment, "... we all know that muscle tightness and flexibility are polar opposites." No, we don't all know that. "Tightness", which I'll call tension, is the opposite of relaxation. Does relaxation == flexibility? No. Flexibility is the capability of something to withstand the application of tension without damage. Nothing to do with relaxation.

          - the differences between you and your girlfriend: did you ever think that you are two different people? Are you sure that the only differentiating factor between you that determines your lack of flexibility in comparison to her is that you once did pushups?

          - this comment: "i think those who say that muscle does NOT impede range of motion are those people who have never bench pressed 200+ pounds talking out of their ass ..." FWIW I benched 275 this morning and DL 385. Not good figures, but not bad for a backyard hack. I am nowhere near musclebound because I focus on strength, not size. There is a big difference. The average (modern) bodybuilder won't be particularly strong in comparison to a powerlifter or Olympic lifter. I have no muscles that impede my ROM.

          - the only thing that moves your body is tension. You cannot move faster or better by relaxing. In fact you cannot move at all. The brain sends electrical impulses that trigger tension in muscle fibres. These fibres contract and you move. What might make you move faster is the absence of tension in antagonist muscles so for example if I wanted to punch (a pushing action that involves triceps amongst others) it might be advantageous if I relaxed my bicep. If OTOH I relaxed my tricep _and_ my bicep I wouldn't be able to punch at all.

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          • #95
            Originally posted by Toby
            Comments like master splinter's and Maestro's make me .

            - ms, what about a male gymnast? They're pretty musclebound and way more flexible than I'll ever be.

            - Bear in mind that weightlifting doesn't equal bodybuilding. Bodybuilders are a small subset of people who lift weights. Check out powerlifting or Olympic lifting for example. Look at Olympic lifters in the lighter weight classes - they most certainly do not look like bodybuilders.

            - Bodybuilding (as someone said) is difficult and requires strict lifting and eating regimes that are beyond the average punter.

            - your comment, "... we all know that muscle tightness and flexibility are polar opposites." No, we don't all know that. "Tightness", which I'll call tension, is the opposite of relaxation. Does relaxation == flexibility? No. Flexibility is the capability of something to withstand the application of tension without damage. Nothing to do with relaxation.

            - the differences between you and your girlfriend: did you ever think that you are two different people? Are you sure that the only differentiating factor between you that determines your lack of flexibility in comparison to her is that you once did pushups?

            - this comment: "i think those who say that muscle does NOT impede range of motion are those people who have never bench pressed 200+ pounds talking out of their ass ..." FWIW I benched 275 this morning and DL 385. Not good figures, but not bad for a backyard hack. I am nowhere near musclebound because I focus on strength, not size. There is a big difference. The average (modern) bodybuilder won't be particularly strong in comparison to a powerlifter or Olympic lifter. I have no muscles that impede my ROM.

            - the only thing that moves your body is tension. You cannot move faster or better by relaxing. In fact you cannot move at all. The brain sends electrical impulses that trigger tension in muscle fibres. These fibres contract and you move. What might make you move faster is the absence of tension in antagonist muscles so for example if I wanted to punch (a pushing action that involves triceps amongst others) it might be advantageous if I relaxed my bicep. If OTOH I relaxed my tricep _and_ my bicep I wouldn't be able to punch at all.



            in many ways i have to disagree with you.

            1.) a male gymnast trains in flexibility, it is crucial to their performance THIS is why they are so flexible.

            2.)weightlifting equals musclebuilding equals bodybuilding, you cannot seperate them.

            3.)relaxation does equal flexibility, you cannot stretch unless you are RELAXED. try tensing and then stretching your bicep, you're gonna get hurt. "Flexibility is the capability of something to withstand the application of tension without damage." true, but how do you stretch without relaxing? and how do you obtain flexibility without stretching?

            4.)the differences between me and my girlfriend are 1.) my arms are about twice the size of hers, and 2.) she has never touched a bench press in her life.

            5.) you say that you bench 275...okay, so can you clasp your hands together behind your back and raise them to your head? i didnt think so, you dont have muscles that impede your rom? your arguement leads me to believe that you would like to think so.

            6.)i cannot finish but i will.
            "Life is a run. In attack we run, in defense we run. When you can no longer run, time to die" - Shichiroji "Seven samurai"

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            • #96
              I give up. Eyebrows is in good company. People, you're on your own.

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              • #97
                bodybuilding without* stretching will lead to a loss of upperbody flexibility. sure you can have upperbody strength and still be flexible i guess..thats only if you make it a point to stretch like crazy, because the more mass you build in the upperbody the harder it will be for you to do more complicated gung fu such as the taiji sword.

                go to any highschool or college and ask any football player if they can clasp their hands behind their back. i can gurantee 90% of them cannot. espcially the bigger ones.

                not much else should be said, someone said something about a muscle bound teacher touching their chest to their knees..thats nothing, whats that supposed to be impressive? for what a 60 year old man? get the hell outta here with these bullshit examples. like MS is trying to say, bodybuilding ie the upperbody, leads to lack of rom, if u think different, do what i said, try what i said about football players, or try it at a gym, find the big guys and see for yourself

                im only a buck 80, my arms are not that big really, MS arms are bigger then mine, my arms more lean..i guess, but i cant clasp my hands behind my back because of the benching i did and the pushups i do..

                now i do small golden bell and the 8 section brocade and my rom hasnt effected these skills, but still, its obvious my rom should be much better, im sure if i dilligently tried to stretch everyday i could improve that, but atm i could careless.
                "did you ask me to consider dick with you??" blooming tianshi lotus

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                • #98
                  no one has offered any evidence that muscle mass in and of itself impedes ROM. you've called my examples bullshit, but still have no evidence to offer.

                  the fact that a high school football team may not train for flexibility doesn't prove anything; the question remains, if two people train for flexibility equally, and one trains for strength as well, will the one who trains for both flexibility and strength end up being less flexible than the other? the prevailing scientific opinion is no. you're both saying yes, so you'll need some kind of evidence to convince me.

                  as far as MS' post, nothing you cited suggests that people with large muscles unconsciously tense their muscles more than people with average muscles, but just that everyone unconsciously tenses their muscles to some extent.

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                  • #99
                    Train like a Shaolin Monk & discover Kung Fu & Qigong. Enjoy inner peace, optimal health, fitness & flexibility with Shifu Yan Lei & traditional training programmes.


                    Just go there and close this damn thread already.
                    Becoming what I've dreamed about.

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                    • [QUOTE=zachsan]
                      the question remains, if two people train for flexibility equally, and one trains for strength as well, will the one who trains for both flexibility and strength end up being less flexible than the other? the prevailing scientific opinion is no.


                      i never said yes, i agree with the prevailing scientific opinion.
                      "Life is a run. In attack we run, in defense we run. When you can no longer run, time to die" - Shichiroji "Seven samurai"

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                      • i think those who say that muscle does NOT impede range of motion are those people who have never bench pressed 200+ pounds talking out of their ass...
                        the prevailing scientific opinion is that muscle does NOT impede ROM. i assumed when you said that such people are "talking out of their ass", you meant they were wrong.

                        ...because i have'nt seen a flexible bodybuilder who does not incorperate at least some form of stretching into his routine.
                        but here, you seem to refute yourself, by admitting that a bodybuilder can be flexible if he incorporates stretching into his routine.

                        so i sort of had to guess, and respond to what i thought your point was.
                        Last edited by zachsan; 07-15-2005, 09:45 PM.

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                        • Perfect exemple of a muscled man ultra stretchable.
                          I even think it's easier to stretch a muscled body and i realize that on myself.It's also important to be stretchable but solid,so both are crucial qualities for kickers.
                          The East? The West?

                          Men and Women, that's all...

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