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  • #46
    I can give examples of lies I've heard and read, but why? Nothing will convince you anyway.

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    • #47
      Looked at your message again. I try to educate a skeptic; on the other hand if he's a jerk I'll argue with him only cuz I like a good debate. You have to admit that some people do get something out of Scientology. It's not perfect, but it is a workable system. Better see that website again... www.dianetics.org....

      Comment


      • #48
        I completely agree. You obviously feel strongly positive about your experience and I was (or intended to be) respectful of your experience. If it's helped you, then it's a good thing for you.

        My entire point was that it's important to recognize that each individual is different and that even something that seems fantastic on the outside can be wrong or even dangerous for some folks. Most especially when it comes to the reprogramming (and that's what it is, however gently presented) that happens with Scientology.

        I read quite a bit of that site you listed, and the "auditing" process is suspect - it's suggestive reprogramming. Also I have a huge problem with the E-meter "artifact" and the false science behind it. Also the fact that there is a cost to "go clear"... You can start for free but you can't get fixed unless you pay.

        I do like that Scientology tells you to be responsible for your own emotions, and for your own ultimate happiness... I just think there may be less invasive (and costly) ways to instill this in people...


        Whatever doesn't kill me had better be able to run damn fast.

        "You are one of the most self-deluded immature idiots I've come across here for a time..." —Blooming T. Lotus

        Comment


        • #49
          I try to educate a skeptic; on the other hand if he's a jerk I'll argue with him only cuz I like a good debate. You have to admit that some people do get something out of Scientology. It's not perfect, but it is a workable system.
          well, depending on how you're viewing this site, we're on page 5 of this thread, now, and you have yet to actually debate a point. to clarify, repeating "that's not true, it's all a bunch of lies" is not debating.

          some people certainly do get something out of scientology, just like any religion. or, for that matter, chocolate cake. or crack.

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by doc
            I don't find Star Wars interesting, but, this, I do. And I really don't know where to study up on this Scientology stuff, but if it's good enough for Tom Cruise, (and he does get the babes), I'm interested in learning more about it.

            How do the principles of Scientology "work well" when put into practice? I'm not sure I even understand these principles.


            I only just found this tread last week, but I've been busy so haven't got to it til now. I looked at this with some interest myself several several yrs back ( like a million or so ) and was just about ready to subscribe myself. I'm still not sure now that I won't take a membership of my own in future . Dead set ........... it was a close call between that and buddhism, but buddhism ended up having gongfu warriors
            All it sounds like to me is a funny way of literating the same concepts in Ch'an and sholin without the gongfu and maybe falun gong without Lihong Zhi and his "engrams " that failed to realise the potential for others to perceive reactive options in psychopathic and suicidal interperetations while confronting or auditing their current state. Just like a dodgy counsellor who sells you a label and a bad method to deal with it ( but only because they thought you'd deal with it diffrently instead of running off and tying yourself off a tree) or a psychiatrist who sells you your need to have drugs. Something about nano - technology and that micro cellular single organism as part of a the whole thing resonates to me more thoroughly with qi concepts as well. I think when it comes down to things like this , it's all just the same concepts described with different terms and parameters.
            You're right though, it is extremely intellegent stuff and a few definate good read potentials min.

            Off to read some more on it myself . Look fwd to seeing what comes out of the chats. Great topic and good timing!!

            cheers
            BL
            Last edited by blooming tianshi lotus; 06-06-2005, 04:09 AM.

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by plumflower_pm
              I completely agree. You obviously feel strongly positive about your experience and I was (or intended to be) respectful of your experience. If it's helped you, then it's a good thing for you.

              My entire point was that it's important to recognize that each individual is different and that even something that seems fantastic on the outside can be wrong or even dangerous for some folks. Most especially when it comes to the reprogramming (and that's what it is, however gently presented) that happens with Scientology.

              I read quite a bit of that site you listed, and the "auditing" process is suspect - it's suggestive reprogramming. Also I have a huge problem with the E-meter "artifact" and the false science behind it. Also the fact that there is a cost to "go clear"... You can start for free but you can't get fixed unless you pay.

              I do like that Scientology tells you to be responsible for your own emotions, and for your own ultimate happiness... I just think there may be less invasive (and costly) ways to instill this in people...


              check this out http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q...tology&spell=1
              Reprogramming is just another name for NLP ( nuero linguistioc programming ) and is just reassociating diffent feelings and emotions to different stimuli. Ch'an or zen does the same thing when it teaches you about detatchments . Traditional Western Psychology branches do it and so does falun gong and a host of many many other schools of integral improvement where thoughts and behaviour are in any way connected . Like " cake = bad / sick / sugar/ harder work out / fat / yuk / sick ........... no fat milk = good / protein / immunity / viscous / fresh / good " .........
              Smoking = "bad / lungs / cancer / dead / bad " or smoking = " good / diathermy / warm / kindey heating / good "
              It's easy to jump on the guy ( Murgous) here about stuff you refuse to consider , and truly PM, I picked up your close mindedness a while back. Shame for you!

              BL
              Last edited by blooming tianshi lotus; 06-06-2005, 04:02 AM.

              Comment


              • #52
                ok.

                I find it kind of funny when I disagree with someone and they call me close-minded.

                I've done my homework and have had personal experience with this group. I have my opinions and ideas and have yet to be presented with information that sways my feelings.

                there is, as I mentioned, good ideas within this group. Taking more personal responsibility for your life choices is one of them. Unfortunately, with the good, comes the bad.

                Much of this church's tenets are based in lies...


                ________________
                Hubbard revealed that 75 million years ago an alien galactic ruler resolved an overpopulation problem by sending his excess subjects to earth on spaceships. Billions of aliens thus came here, but they were paralyzed and stacked around the base of volcanoes.

                Then H-bombs were lowered and detonated within the volcanoes, hence the exploding mountaintops often seen in Scientology promotions, a cryptic allusion to their once well kept secret that now is widely known through the Internet.

                But these billions of alien souls called "thetans" still remain on earth clustered in groups. And Tom Cruise, along with other Scientologists, believes that every earthling is full of them. These Body Thetans or BTs are also supposedly problematic little pests, which should be dealt with. Think of Scientology as the ultimate "BT buster."

                Millions of people, including celebrities like Tom Cruise and John Travolta have paid copious amounts of cash to clear themselves and bust those potentially debilitating BTs. _____________________

                (IsraelNN.com) German Jews have accused the Church of Scientology of using Holocaust material to link Sigmund Freud with Hitler. The Church's campaign against psychiatry blames the Viennese Jew for promoting sex and drugs and claims that his theories "have largely been disproved." Freud was one of the founders of modern psychiatry.

                Scientology's Commission on the Human Rights Abuses of Psychiatry is traveling throughout Germany to persuade citizens that psychiatrists were behind the Nazi campaign to exterminate "worthless lives."

                ____________________






                Whatever doesn't kill me had better be able to run damn fast.

                "You are one of the most self-deluded immature idiots I've come across here for a time..." —Blooming T. Lotus

                Comment


                • #53
                  long live alternative therapy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

                  No Pm, your take on it is based on ignorance, lack of information and respective judgement.

                  I'm not actually a scinetologist, but being a member here with some information and loose priority on what arguement wins, I'll field it for yas
                  ( Pleasure btw )

                  As far as the problem some ppl are having with these ppl ( scientological dianetc therapists - as an "alternative " ( mental health ) medical practice method provider - and charging you for the information and service ( therapy sessions alah auditing ( similar to what's been rumoured ( off the track a little ) practiced conceptual in lieu of penal methods , by ancient ( again rumoured to 've existed ) atlantians ( reputed as an extremely advanced technological society) but using interactive interpersonally verbal methods as opposed to the same chi balancing effect but via quartz crystal therapy ( it was rumouired they ised to take criminals into these caves to repair chi and restore energy flows as this was believed the stem of the behaviour) and not dissimilar to the ancient Eygyptians and their and their pyramid therapies under the same disturbed behavoural expressions ) , I think it would likely help here to understand that this a professional benificently intended service from an educated ( however so ) provider. Just like you'd pay for other highly skilled and educated behaviour "repair " service providers ( alternative or otherwise / or even shifu & qigong masters claiming to be able to the same thing for you , despite how happy they are to do whatever it is they do for you, ( not dissimilar to the shifu who loves his gongfu and it's benifits and would rather do very little else with his time than furter his study and teach some of it to help you out) unfortunately, ppl have to live and it requires financial resource. On professional salary payment tiering lvls, and particularly when study is a factor of that tiering, it is not unreasonable for them to expect that you'd value the service that you likely wouldn't be privvy to if not able to buy it - ( and particularly from someone as committed to it's virtue to make it a vocational pursuit ) , enough to pay them for their time.
                  Even catholic and other Christian priests and buddhist monks and sholin disciples etc ( as far as the "religious " "labelling " goes), expect you'll contribute to their bowl during provision of or delivery of the service, if they don't come outright and ask you for an upfront fee for whatever they do for you or pass onto you from their accumulated information and respective subscribed beliefed "specialty" feilded perspectives. Even weddings and funerals cost something to have them service!!! And.......... so do their literary works to print and distribute .
                  The information and services you get "absolutely" free in today's world, they are the anomilies!!! Let's just not not cobnfused or carried away with lynching and unreasonabley considered judgements! Money makes the world go around and we know it!

                  cheers

                  Blooming Lotus

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Zachsan...........

                    I noticed that yoiu took issue back there with the attack when confronted operandi advocated and for whatever reason Murgous gave you nothing on it. I read both Plumlower's links and several pages of your own ( @ 4 freaking thirty this morning and late last night ) and , believing it'll help you guys clarify a little , really wanted to contribute my own few cents worth.

                    I think the thing here is that to gain a positrion to really have right to a fair judgemental call, you really need to try a wholly empathetic understanding on of what the other side is saying from the information and sympathetic to the operandi the work from. Only then , I believe can you stop being an ignorant ass and say something intellegent about it. How can you judge what you don't even understand?? No godammed wonder they advocate attacking your character in response!! The police do the same thing when crims try to argue with them in arrest proceedures! There is nothing to talk about ! If you don't understand it's a waste of breath, so I'd likely question how set your mind was myself.......... just not so vocally ! But I'm not selling my synopsis nor recruiting anyone into it...........so I guess that's why we differ in how we approach that.


                    I also noticed someones issue here aswell with the validity of scientology and dianetics as a "real" science. From my own studies over the last 16 or so years ( in NLP and counseling , violence and substance abuses understanding and my zen and related inter/ intra mind field language and consequential action phd studies and human operandi and theologies and nuero - science strands and so on and so on) and from discussions with other psyche major colleagues I've been lucky to occassionally have around the world , I have come to understand that all psychologies ( or "behavioural science " schools and theorysubsects, though deemed "science" by educational institutes and govt bodies & associated and affilliated health tribunals and colleague bodies, they are a possible explabatin and psueduscience themselves when stacked against any other single one conflicting view........yet they're listed on the books and in unis as "behavioural science "!!!???!!!
                    Qigong and tcm degrees etc have " behavioural science" units and m,odules temselves and we kbnow exactly what ppl say about it. Ignorance exists , ..........it just doesn't solve anything excpet in anylsis by someone not! Lol.......

                    cheers

                    Blooming Lotus

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Apologies to everyone for the hijack, but let me tell you where I get just a little of my experience with this church from. There's reading and personal study too, but this experience illustrates my feelings.

                      After high school, I thought I wanted to be a cop. Seemed like a good path with my MA training and all that – anyway, after a year of criminal justice education and introductory training with the San Jose police department, I changed my mind about policework. A year or so later, when I was in college (near San Francisco), a friend I made in the San Jose PD hooked me up with a part time job working in recovery for a bail bondsman in Berkeley. (best job I’ve ever had)



                      We frequently had “deadbeat dad” cases – failure to pay child support, failure to show up in court, so we go and try to locate him on behalf of the court system.



                      The guy we were to recover had cut off all ties with his family and friends, abandoned his wife and two kids, made one child support payment in the past 4 years. The justice system really, really wanted to have a talk with him.



                      During the investigation, found out that 4 years prior he had been invited to a retreat by a friend – a retreat provided by a local Scientology group and called something like a “Stress Reduction Retreat”. He’d gone and had become interested, and gotten involved – eventually to the tune of about 30,000 dollars a year. He moved up in the group, and became an auditor himself – was a level 6, pretty high up in the organization, he trained other auditors. He spent all his available time at the church offices. He wouldn’t communicate with anyone who questioned his beliefs or choices. Not surprisingly, this led to problems with his family life. His scientology “friends” encouraged him to divorce his wife, to leave his children, and to shut his family and past friends out of his life.



                      When word of him skipping out on his support payments surfaced, the group turned on him so fast it was amazing. As soon as they found out there would be investigations into his activity over the past years, they literally put him out on the street – when we picked the guy up he was living behind a dumpster. They closed ranks to keep him out, denied all ties with him, wouldn’t take calls or talk to him. These people, his “church”, turned their backs on him at the first sign of trouble. He referred to them as his family. They denied they ever counseled him, took money from him, or ever even met him.


                      So yea, my views are subjective, but they are certainly not uneducated. There IS good in this theology, but the practice and application can be cult-like in it's ability to consume a person in it's false science and teachings based on fictional history.
                      Whatever doesn't kill me had better be able to run damn fast.

                      "You are one of the most self-deluded immature idiots I've come across here for a time..." —Blooming T. Lotus

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        BL, in response to your comment on a post a few pages back... yes. exactly like whiskey. only i don't argue that, because whiskey has "done some things for some people", it's therefore good for people. well, not seriously.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          I think the thing here is that to gain a positrion to really have right to a fair judgemental call, you really need to try a wholly empathetic understanding on of what the other side is saying from the information and sympathetic to the operandi the work from.
                          From my own studies over the last 16 or so years... I have come to understand that all psychologies... are a possible explabatin and psueduscience themselves when stacked against any other single one conflicting view.
                          so, a science becomes a pseudoscience when it's stacked against any other single conflicting view. therefore, no belief is any more worthy of credit than any other belief, if another belief exists that is contrary to the belief. in other words, no one is right about anything as long as someone says they're wrong.

                          fortunately, that's not what a pseudoscience is, and that's not the way science works. a science is a study of something based on evidence. a pseudoscience is something which claims to be a science without any evidential basis.

                          now, apply that to scientology. through neurology, we have an idea of how the brain as an organ works, by empirical testing. no such evidence exists to support hubbard's engram theory, despite his insistence in "dianetics" that it does. he alleges its existence repeatedly, but never tells us where this evidence may be found. nor does he offer his evidence for the idea that Xenu blew up billions of aliens on earth 75 million years ago with H-bombs and that their souls are attacking us on a cellular level.

                          science is based on evidence. none exists for scientology's main claims. thus, scientology has nothing at all to do with science. since it claims to be one, that makes it a lie, plain and simple. no "empathetic understanding" required.
                          Last edited by zachsan; 06-07-2005, 07:51 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by plumflower_pm
                            Apologies to everyone for the hijack, but let me tell you where I get just a little of my experience with this church from. There's reading and personal study too, but this experience illustrates my feelings.

                            After high school, I thought I wanted to be a cop. Seemed like a good path with my MA training and all that – anyway, after a year of criminal justice education and introductory training with the San Jose police department, I changed my mind about policework. A year or so later, when I was in college (near San Francisco), a friend I made in the San Jose PD hooked me up with a part time job working in recovery for a bail bondsman in Berkeley. (best job I’ve ever had)



                            We frequently had “deadbeat dad” cases – failure to pay child support, failure to show up in court, so we go and try to locate him on behalf of the court system.



                            The guy we were to recover had cut off all ties with his family and friends, abandoned his wife and two kids, made one child support payment in the past 4 years. The justice system really, really wanted to have a talk with him.



                            During the investigation, found out that 4 years prior he had been invited to a retreat by a friend – a retreat provided by a local Scientology group and called something like a “Stress Reduction Retreat”. He’d gone and had become interested, and gotten involved – eventually to the tune of about 30,000 dollars a year. He moved up in the group, and became an auditor himself – was a level 6, pretty high up in the organization, he trained other auditors. He spent all his available time at the church offices. He wouldn’t communicate with anyone who questioned his beliefs or choices. Not surprisingly, this led to problems with his family life. His scientology “friends” encouraged him to divorce his wife, to leave his children, and to shut his family and past friends out of his life.



                            When word of him skipping out on his support payments surfaced, the group turned on him so fast it was amazing. As soon as they found out there would be investigations into his activity over the past years, they literally put him out on the street – when we picked the guy up he was living behind a dumpster. They closed ranks to keep him out, denied all ties with him, wouldn’t take calls or talk to him. These people, his “church”, turned their backs on him at the first sign of trouble. He referred to them as his family. They denied they ever counseled him, took money from him, or ever even met him.


                            So yea, my views are subjective, but they are certainly not uneducated. There IS good in this theology, but the practice and application can be cult-like in it's ability to consume a person in it's false science and teachings based on fictional history.


                            I find this so typically judgemental!!!!!! When that man the decision to pursue scientology and pay whatever it cost , he obviously had already decided that his family life choice had lead him to be unhappy and was after another perspective having him exercise his liberty of free will. So the man was unhappy and decided to prioritise his perspective rehash ?? I have no idea ( besides your lack of experience, and excuse my own harshness here but consider it a pointer ) where you get off suggesting that it's your place to personally judge that he was not within his right to conduct his life how he chose to, as opposed to you just professionally pursuing the payment schedule or pass on the information to the relevant body.
                            I also read the article that Zachsan posted and the presentation mode was exactly the same! What both you and that article describe with anticipation of jaw popping reaction, in itself are nothing more than non-commentable bias presentation based more on personal gripes than any real lack of morality in the actual action/s or actual misdemeanor. And that's what I meant about what I perceive of your judgement abilty. Thank christ we don't have to agree!

                            cheers

                            Blooming Lotus

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Maybe I was unclear.
                              By "working in recovery", I meant I was a bounty hunter - I found people who'd skipped out on thier court date and returned them safely to the arms of the law. "Recovery" is the "professional" term that's used (you know, the fancy bullshit way to say something to make it sound nice).

                              I couldn’t care less about the guy’s choices or life path. For all I know his wife was a raving lunatic shrew during their marriage. I only talked with her once.



                              My issue with him was:

                              He broke the law by failing to pay child support he agreed to pay in court, and then he compounded the issue by failing to appear in court when summoned.



                              As for my own ethical comment, I saw how his children lived, they could have used his $400 a month and he easily could have afforded it. His wife had three jobs when I met her.





                              My issue with Scientology in this matter:

                              They took $120,0000 of his money and called him friend and family for four years, but when he really needed their support and guidance, they literally threw him out.
                              Last edited by plumflower_pm; 06-08-2005, 02:51 PM.
                              Whatever doesn't kill me had better be able to run damn fast.

                              "You are one of the most self-deluded immature idiots I've come across here for a time..." —Blooming T. Lotus

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                What a load of wank PM!!!


                                Your issue ???!! Lol............ you have no right to have one Plumflower!! You'reonly doing a job and personal opinion just doesn't come into it . Are you a professional or aren't you???

                                As far as him breaking the law, the man needed a mental - health break from life and come - what - may he took it. At the end of the day, his bills caught up with him ( as he no doubt new they would when he was strong enough to deal with it and as happens to many non- felonous citizens all the time) and he'll pay the consequence. It's not exactly something exclusive to scientology so much as a behavioural trait of ppl in personal strfie. At least hesought change , so how about some slack for the man???!!! God forbid you ever wake up realising you're unhappy and bench every single thing you have to pursue better life - quality and some good old fashioned support and inmformation!!! For chrissakes ! We're not exactly talking mass murder her you know and the guy felt he was in some serious high priority spiritual strife!!! I'm sad fptr you if you've never known any before nor what it takes to swee it out but cut the man some slack ha , and while you're there you might wantto review that " I wanna be in charge of everyone and all their freedoms and decide who has what liberty when they can execute and under qwhat parameters " ........ for crying out lousd you're a bigott Pm! You want that power and the right to exercise it ???........ then study hard prioritising it against everything else you currently hold dear and gain yourself a political chair to sit in and yell from !
                                Loving other ppls self delusions

                                BL
                                Last edited by blooming tianshi lotus; 06-09-2005, 02:18 AM.

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