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Thread: Tai Chi in china, and Tai Chi questions.

  1. #1
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    Tai Chi in china, and Tai Chi questions.

    Hi everybody (hi Dr. Nick),

    I have a couple of questions in regards to Chinese Martial Arts. Firstly, what is Tai Chi Chuan? I have heard alot of things about it and I even practice it. However, when I ask about it's self defense application I don't get a very affirmative respose. "Martial applications are explained, but the focus is on health" and "We teach Tai Chi Chuan for health, not self defense".

    So I guess what I would like to know is, is Tai Chi a comprehensive self defense style aswell as the many health benefits? Or are there only slight uses for Tai Chi as a self defense system? If I am looking to defend myself, would I be better off looking at a different style for that purpose?

    Secondly, If Tai Chi Chuan is worth training in for self defense, why/how is this so?

    Thirdly, are there any places I can go to in China/Hong Kong for rigorous daily practice in this style? How long would/can I practice each day? And what are the prices like for travel/accommodtaion/food/lessons comming from Australia?

    Finally, how long should I stay for to really get a good handle on the style for self defense aswell as health - considerring I continue my practice back home in Australia, I make good connections and can always go back every 1/2 years to further my training? My teacher would probably be interested in seeing what I bring back with me.

    Anyway, thankyou for your time.
    Last edited by Astroblade; 07-29-2006 at 03:56 AM.

  2. #2
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    Come on surely somebody can help me out?

  3. #3
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    You should just call it taiji then if you are just doing it for health...

    What style of taiji do you practice?

    If you don't see any martial applications in it, then you might want to examine your practice.

    tae bo would have good self defense applications if trained properly...
    practice wu de

  4. #4
    Who's Dr Nick?

    Tai Ji is good for health, supposedly, but, at higher levels, it has similar moves to some things in gong fu, and does have combat applications. It requires great flexibility, strength and balance, for some of the maneuvers. Some of the maneuvers can be used for combat, however, as I've seen, these manuevers are similar to ones found in shaolin gong fu forms (or other CMA).

    It's good for older people because it's less rigorous, and less demanding cardiovascular wise, though it brings into play some good strength and flexibility exercises. Some people teach it purely for health, but, keep in mind that though its not very obvious, there are fighting applications within it.
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  5. #5
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    Hi. I do tai chi (tai ji) in Canada. It is the Chen style. This style is primarily martial that I can tell, every move has an application. Alot of low stances, which makes it difficult, more so than kung fu!
    There are a few styles of tai ji: chen, sun, wu, fu, yang and probably more. I only know yang and chen. In yang, the moves are far from the applications. The techniques are hidden in the moves, but when you start push hands, the applications are present, even though they seem removed from the form. Yang is good for health, but if you want health movements, chi kung would be suggested. Chen is good for health too, but its primarily martial.
    I can't remember any more of your questions, I don't have the page at hand.
    Good luck

  6. #6
    Idoia is offline Registered Member: no custom title Registered Member
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    If you do all the movements of the form quickly, you will see that some of them are similar to kung fu and can be use in a combat even it is yang style. That´s what we did to see the application of tai chi in combar.

  7. #7
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    Yes, it can be used as a self defense system. But the generel consensus is that will take you at least 10-30 years of practice to be at a point where you can effectively fight with your taiji. Thats if your really good at it.

    If you're looking for fighting efffectiveness with less than a decade of time investment, go for wing chun or muay thai with a grappling style as well (bjj or some sort of wrestling). If you want to become proficient at self-defense or fighting, taiji can get you there, but it'll take a very long time. With most teachers. There's a fellow in nyc who does a more martial style of taiji where you might progress quicker, very famous. Cant recall his name though.
    Show me a man who has forgotten words, so that I can have a word with him.

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    Combat Principles in Taijiquan

    I somehow could not link to one of my posts from 2003, so I copied it to provide a little background on Combat applications. Other than that daodejing is right. It will certainly take a while.

    Enjoy!


    A Word About Anatomical Weapons

    The anatomical weapons in Taijiquan are not rigorously hardened like in external styles of martial arts. This is because it is not hardness of the weapon but the energy within it that is the effecting component. If the correct structure of the anatomical weapon is maintained, then structurally it will be substantial and able to deliver telling blows with much power without recourse to hardening. The appropriate efficient use of strength usually does not entail vast quantities of it to obtain the desired effect. The principles behind the adage of deflecting a thousand pounds with four ounces hold true in Taijiquan.


    Bu Tiu Bu Ding: Not Letting Go, Not Resisting
    This combat principle is first cultivated in Push Hands practice and later refined in San Shou practice. The key element in this principle is nian or sticking and it operates through nian jing or sticking jing. This is because without sticking, one cannot hear the opponent's energy and its qualities and so be able to control them effectively. And if we resist then we give the attacker a base for which to effect his attack.
    That is why instead of deflecting, resisting and absorbing an opponent's attacking force, Taijiquan exponents evade, redirect and blend with it. Evade means simply to move out of his way. In any attack, there are only limited points of attack, so simply removing yourself out of his attacking focus by a change of position negates it. Upon contact, it is not a hard block but a blending with the attacking part by yeilding, sticking and following his momentum, joining his energy and redirecting it to your advantage.

    Through Nian Jing or sticking energy we can then develop Ting Jing or listening to energy which is the sensitivity to detect the opponent's strength, its origin, trajectory, magnitude and component vectors. Once we are able to detect his energy movement and his centre of mass, we can effectively know his intent and control it by affecting the energy flow and centre of mass efficiently.


    Sui Ren Zhi Shi, Jie Ren Zhi Li: Following His Posture, Borrowing His Strength
    This simply means to follow your opponent's structure and adapt to it so that it is ineffective. This is practical application of the principle of Bu Tiu Bu Ding by yeilding and following him. Rather than a rigid application of postures learnt, the postures occur spontaneously in response to the opponent's structure.
    Borrowing his strength is essentially utilising his own strength against himself, either by causing it to over extend or to channel it through your own body structure back to him. He is literally then hitting himself and there is little expenditure by way of energy for the Taijiquan exponent.

    This following of the opponent's structure is first learnt from Push Hands, which is why it is important that it not degrade it to a choreographed exercise. Sensing the movements and responding to them is correct rather than just going through the motions and not sensing them. If he does not move, you should not move, but even static, there will be structural flaws that can be detected by the touch and one can attack them by moving first. But be always aware of a possible trap, even during an attack, sensing plays a very important role in avoiding traps by responding in mid-attack and countering the trap.


    Yin Jing Ru Kong: Attract Into Emptiness
    Literally it means attract into emptiness. It is one of the most common tactic used in Taijiquan and is exemplified by the posture Roll Back which implements the opponent's entry into emptiness. The tactic essentially is presenting a false target for the opponent to attack and when he does, you spring the trap of letting his own momentum and mass be his own undoing by overextending it. Finding no target, he is naturally unbalanced and is easy to counter.

    Fa-Jing: Emitting Energy
    This is when the Taijiquan exponent attacks, it refers to the emission/transmission of energy out of the exponent's body and into the enemy or target. The whole process is of an explosive nature but at no point in it is the body or limbs rigid. Taijiquan exponents are noted for their great power when it comes to uprooting or bouncing an opponent out. This power, however, is applied appropriately and efficiently. Having alot of power but not knowing where to use it is quite useless, hence the importance of sensitivity. Sensitivity allows one to not only know the opponent and avoid his power but also know where to apply yours to greatest effect.
    So is the appropriate use of great power then the key? No it isn't. Power in excess of what is required to achieve the neutralisation and control is inherently unstable. Refining the process till it becomes so efficient that minimum power can produce maximum effect. Then even an old man can best a young and strong one, not with more power but with the intelligent and efficient application of the body.

    That is why masters like Zheng Man Qing can send a 200 pound man flying across the room but can find a bowling ball too heavy for him to carry on with the sport (example taken from Mr Lowenthal's book on Master Zheng). The seeming paradox is no paradox at all once one understands it.


    Chang Jing: Long Energy
    This is the most common type of energy emission used in Taijiquan. It develops from the feet and because the energy path is long, through all the joints and ending at the fingers, it is called Long Energy. It is commonly seen when Taijiquan exponents bounce out their push hands partners. The whole body of the opponent is physically pushed away by moving his centre of mass. If it is done correctly, both his feet should leave the ground when he is propelled away. This is why the technique is called uprooting.
    The energy can be developed from the rear foot, the front foot or from one to the other. All the joints in the body work coordinatively and smoothly without tension to transfer, amplify and focus the generated energy to the point of attack. This type of energy is usually the first to be manifested by the exponent and though it can be spectacular, it does not cause very serious injury.


    Duan Jing: Short Energy
    This type of energy emission is less common and is considered a rather advanced method. The energy transmission path is shorter than that of Long Energy and originates at the centre of mass which is supported via the rooting leg. The energy emission begins at the centre of mass and propogates outwards. Down the root and out through the limbs. It is targeted on and acts upon the centre of mass of the opponent directly, using it as a base for a crushing attack that ruptures organs, rends musculature and breaks bones.
    The fastest application of such energy is called Leng Jing or Cold Energy. The reason it is called this is that the emission was so sudden that it catches the opponent by great surprise, so great it became fright, causing him to break out in cold sweat.


    Jie Jing: Intercepting Energy or Receiving Energy
    This skill has always been associated with the great masters and we know that Yang Lu Chan and more recently Yang Cheng Fu and his disciple Zheng Man Qing possessed this skill. It has been said to border on the mysterious and is hard to attain such skill. This skill can only be attained after one is learned in the feet, inches, tenths, hundreth parts and thousandths parts in Taijiquan. At lower levels of attainment, jie jing is expressed mainly through the hands, at higher levels where the entire body is responsive then it can be expressed from almost any part of the body.
    What this skill really means is that with an incoming object at speed, the body or contact point, by sticking and yeilding attains almost the same speed as the object. This means that since the acceleration of the object and the contact point is nearly the same, their relative speed to each other is small. By listening to the object's centre and vectors, an appropriate minimum vector can be applied to change the object's trajectory. If it is a balanced object, it can be easily pushed, if it is not it can be easily redirected. This is what Zheng Man Qing meant that in Jie Jing one must first attract the object first then throw it away.


    Feet, Tenths, Hundreths Parts And Thousandths Parts
    This means the devision of each movement in Taijiquan into ever finer gradations of movement, technique and jing flow. Each part is then meaningful and has an application in a combative context. The refinement of movements to efficiency is but the beginning, later each part of the movement itself has meaning and later each part of every part and so on.
    This practice also ensures that the mind is concious of every part of the movement and every tiny movement of the body. Sensitivity is thus trained to a very fine degree as is the response to such minute stimulii. As the Classics state the goal quite clearly, to be so light and sensitive that a feather cannot be added nor a fly alight.


    The Four Advanced Yang Taijiquan Combat Skills
    There are situations where the skills and principles above require some augmentation to make them even more effective. This is usually where the opponent's skill level is high enough so that an effective counter is not possible using less injurous means. With such situations stronger discouragement is required and to cater for such eventualities, Yang Taijiquan has four advanced combat skills. These four skills can only be learned and applied effectively after one is able to understand each individual portion of any technique. In other words, one must be able to comprehend and put into practice the feet, tenths, hundreth parts and thousandth parts in Taijiquan. These four skills are recorded in the handwritten manual handed down from Yang Lu Chan. It must be noted that the four skills are not used entirely on their own but are integrated to form a comprehensive system of attack and defence built upon the basics of stability, sensitivity, agility and efficient use of the body and energy.


    Bi Xue: Sealing Accupoints
    This is also known as Hitting Accupoints and is more commonly known among Chinese martial artists as Dian Xue or Dotting Accupoints because the majority of these kinds of attack make use of the fingertips. Attacking accupoints is by no means unique to Taijiquan but the way it is done is certainly quite unique. Whilst other martial arts often make use of serious conditioning of the anatomical weapons and vigourous body conditioning to develop the strength and resistance required to hit accpoints, Taijiquan uses positional and structural advantage to let the opponent provide the power to hit himself with his own power and mass.
    Accupoints are divided into fatal and non-fatal accopoints. Fatal accupoints are only used in a life and death situation as they are cause death very quickly and should not be used indiscriminately. Non-fatal accupoints are used to simply disable or incapcitate the opponent without causing too much harm. There are also accupoints that are more effective at different times of the day depending on the qi flow in the body. These timed strikes are of a more insidious nature as they are used for delayed killing or assassinations.

    A short list of some of the accupoints used in Taijiquan is provided but readers are advised against using them unless absolutely necessary and to refrain from experimentation as the recovery techniques should be properly understood before one should practice with accupoints. Even then it is advisible not to practice them with any sort of impact since any accupoint strike on the body is a severe disruption of the body's systems and will have an affect on health of the body, both in the long term and in the short term. In most cases, even after remedial massage and accupoint treatment is carried out, herbs are taken to strengthen and stablise the body in order to eliminate any after effects.

    Grasp Sparrow's Tail:


    Peng (Ward-Off)- Wrist and forearm points (LI 4/5/7/10/11, SI 6/7, Lu 5/6/7/8, H 2/3/6, P 6, TW 5)

    Lu (Rollback) - wrist and upper arm points (TW 11/12, LI 13, P 2)

    Ji (Press)- centre of chest (Ren 15/17, K 23, and flank, Liv 13/14, Sp 21, GB 24)

    An (Push)- ribs (K 23, St 19) and floating ribs (Li 13/14)

    Zhua Jing: Grasping Muscles
    Grasping musculature in Taijiquan is akin to the specialisation of Chin-Na (Grasping and Holding) which is an advanced skill in many forms of Chinese martial arts. The difference is that in Taijiquan, the use of positional advantage, momentum and structural advantage is of more importance than super strong fingers. The sensitivity of combat Taijiquan permits the use of the opponent's structure, position, mass and momentum against himself causing him to literally lock and tie himself up with his structure with the Taijiquan exponent simply helping him do it.
    The result of this is that his body is unstable, rendering him vulnerable to serious injury should the the Taijiquan exponent chooses to do so. The locks and holds also cause sprains, tears of the musculature and dislocations of bones at the joints which further disable the opponent.


    Jie Mo: Sectioning Fascia
    This skill is directed at restricting blood flow so as to render the body ineffectual in the execution of attacks. This is done primarily by structural control so that the position and state of the musculature and soft tissues of the opponent are such that the blood flow to certain parts of the body is restricted. Blood flow pressure points or gate points as they are referred to in Chinese are also used to effect this. This can cause the limb to go to sleep or cause a knock out. Also part of this skill is the restriction of air flow by attacking the respiratory system and the musculature that powers it. Strikes are sometimes used to effect this.
    Positional and structural advantage and use is essential to restrict and control his body. This is possible to a fine degree through the tactile sensitivity attained through dilligent practice in pushing hands and sparring hands.


    Na Mai: Holding Vessels
    This refers to the grasping, holding and pushing of the qi meridians and accupoints with the purpose of disrupting and controlling the qi flow in the body. This makes the body impaired in terms of function and movement rendering the opponent vulnerable. Where Grasping Muscles attacks the physical structure of the body and Sectioning Fascia attacks the circulatory system, Holding Vessels attacks the internal vital energy flow which is distinct from the accupoints and the striking of them.
    A good knowledge of the body's qi meridians is necessary as is the results of their disruption and blockage. As with the above skills, the opponent own body and energy is used against himself through superior information via tactile sensitivity and appropriate efficient application to obtain the desired result.


    Healing And Harming
    When one can destroy a thing, one controls a thing. The knowledge and skill to cause destruction and death of the body can also be used to restore health and prolong life. The four advanced skills mentioned briefly above all require a thorough and intimate knowledge of the body and its functions. This knowledge can be used to heal injuries and illnesses by opening blockages to qi and blood circulation, restoring proper musculature position and function.
    Often, this healing function is learned first before the harming function is taught. This ensures a proper disposition and respect for the skill as well a firm grounding in the theoretical base and its practical application. It is because these skills are so destructive that they are seldom taught and a large proportion of exponents in the art are not aware of their existance. They are passed on only to the most trusted of disciples who will not abuse them but use them for the benefit of all mankind.

  9. #9
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    There is way too much myth and B.S. around taijiquan. Yes a lot of old Chinese practice taiji & qigong in the park in the wee small hours, and yes it is good for health. However I’ve found so many people in North America only know the form and nothing else. It shouldn’t take you 20 years to learn combat taiji. “Hard” forms start from the outside and should move inward, where as “soft” forms start from within and should move outward. Yet many times “hard” forms only go so far as pure strength and “soft” form only go so far as supple exercise. Taijiquan is the yin/yang fist, the needle in the cotton, suppleness with a steel core. It is a way of moving, deflecting, moving through once you’ve made contact with your opponent; it is a close in fighting style. Wing Chun talks about sticky hands and sticky legs, taiji is sticky body. The two martial styles compliment each other very well. The form gives you a foundation in body mechanics; it is done slowly to insure muscle memory. Each movement is a weapon in an arsenal; each movement has as many applications as your imagination can come up with, as long as it holds to the biomechanical principles. All the true teachers of combat taiji I’ve known like it the best as it gave them the most freedom to “play” with. It is said you do not practice taiji you play it, you dance it, you eventually make the form your own; no two people ever do the form the same way for no two people are built the same nor react the same.

  10. #10
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    awesome post uwe,

    as sor the question, learn one of the yang forms, i think theres is a 24 movement form all the way up to a 108 movement form. doing these forms over and over correctly, that is inducing the flow of chi and using low stances. it can be a very tiring workout.

    though i think that learning the "principles" of tai chi will help any type of martial artist.
    "Life is a run. In attack we run, in defense we run. When you can no longer run, time to die" - Shichiroji "Seven samurai"

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